Sell/Unsell me

[Coyote0273]

I echo Kerensky on the classes. At 5th level, our mage was fairly handy with a bow. Not nearly as useful as one of the pure warrior types, but even when she ran out of spells she wasn't useless in a fight. Also, the Wound/Vitality values for classes means that even the mage can take some decent damage.

The NPC creation is one of the best parts about the game. I've got pages and pages and pages of stock NPCs as a result of my campaigns that I can toss in any time I need an orc or a thief to challenge the party. It looks scary at first, but its fairly easy to get a grip on. Plus, there's the handy NPC programs on the link program that makes them even easier.

Hardest part, honestly, is getting past the D&D bias, as others have said. Once you've gotten past that hurdle, the game opens up whole other dimensions of play.

I haven't had any problems in running my games, even my hardcore D&D players love the system, and don't think much of going back to D&D anymore.

[Catodon]

I recently ran my first FC game. I have no experience refereeing 3e D&D and only about 6h as a player. I had played FC only as pbp. I am very conversant with tens of other games though. My players had never seen FC before the game. Most of my players had some 3e knowledge which got in the way a little bit but not too much since I took time to talk about that this is very different to standard d20.
We use pregens I had made. The characters were odd by D&D standards: a Truly Massive* Drake Captain, a Dwarf Soldier, and an Unborn (golem) explorer.
The game played very smoothly and without using a grid for combat. Player's, (even the player with about 6mo GURPS experince and no other rpg experience), quickly grasped enough of the rules to play. Players liked action die but actually made very little use of them. The Huge 44' long first level dragon raised some eyebrows but actually didn't seem unbalanced to me or the players, at least in the context of our short woodland adventure.

Set up was pretty short except for making four pregenerated PC's these took about as long as a 2e AD&D character to make, each.

*Truly Massive was cut from the second printing it allowed for Huge PCs.

[Goodlun]

I really want to echo how easy the NPC system makes running this game.  The big thing too is it really stresses the fact that its PCs vs NPCs and not a Class vs Class system.  So you don't have to worry about your mage squaring off against a PC class Soldier.
NPCs are also much easier to adjust on the fly if your just not getting the results you want out of them.

[aegis]

Also, what about ease to run? 3.x was a bear to run, especially at higher levels. 4E is dirt easy to run. How does this compare? I saw easier than 3.x bu harder than SW. Is this true? I look at the book, and it looks... complex.

The game is easy to run but only as long as you don't ask too much of ... yourself. The point is, don't get overwhelmed with options you don't understand at all. For starters, players should stick with simple concepts and character options. The only area where the GM should also be careful is when designing/using NPCs: know the options you grant them. Aside for that, once you know what you have in hand, the game becomes really easy to play, because if the rules are numerous, they generally are intuitive and make sense.

If you have a doubt in game, apply what you think is fair and stick to it until the end of the adventure: with luck, you'd have guessed right. If not, maybe you can explain your players where you got it wrong or even change the rules if your think your call was better. The point is, it's not because the rules are slick and precise that you must be yourself some kind of living rules-layer. Be flexible and do what you can. The rest you will learn with time and experience. There's no wrong call.

[Sletchman]

Other than that, one thing I am finding a bit of a con: Fantasy Craft is roll-happy. It uses opposed rolls for lots of things, not to mention a damage methods that trigger saving throws. These methods do have their advantages, but when you have a big battle with lots of action, the rolls do get to get a bit distracting.

In the last FC game I ran, one of the players attacks would generate 4 opposed rolls from me - for every single attack.  So if you don't like to roll dice I would use something akin to Psion's house rule.

In my mind the single greatest selling point of FC is the NPC system, in my opinion it is the absolute best of it's type.

[Morfedel]

Other than that, one thing I am finding a bit of a con: Fantasy Craft is roll-happy. It uses opposed rolls for lots of things, not to mention a damage methods that trigger saving throws. These methods do have their advantages, but when you have a big battle with lots of action, the rolls do get to get a bit distracting.

In the last FC game I ran, one of the players attacks would generate 4 opposed rolls from me - for every single attack.  So if you don't like to roll dice I would use something akin to Psion's house rule.

In my mind the single greatest selling point of FC is the NPC system, in my opinion it is the absolute best of it's type.

Ok, how does one attack generate four opposed rolls?

[Sletchman]

Other than that, one thing I am finding a bit of a con: Fantasy Craft is roll-happy. It uses opposed rolls for lots of things, not to mention a damage methods that trigger saving throws. These methods do have their advantages, but when you have a big battle with lots of action, the rolls do get to get a bit distracting.

In the last FC game I ran, one of the players attacks would generate 4 opposed rolls from me - for every single attack.  So if you don't like to roll dice I would use something akin to Psion's house rule.

In my mind the single greatest selling point of FC is the NPC system, in my opinion it is the absolute best of it's type.

Ok, how does one attack generate four opposed rolls?

IIRC - Unnerving + Massive weapon with a divine damage Essence:

1) Save vs Baffled
2) Save vs Stress Damage
3) Damage Save
4) Save vs Prone

Yeah this was an the most extreme, but others in the same group would reguarly prompt 3 checks.  I don't think it's a flaw in the system, just that many of the tricks key off opposed checks, and if they deal any kind of damage that involves a save then there's a minimum of 2 checks for a lot of combat actions.  You throw in exotic damage and it's a minimum of 3 checks for those same actions.  So if you're someone who hates a bunch of dice rolls during a game this could be potentially a disadvantage.

Upshot is they're almost always very straight forward - easy to calculate DCs or quick skill checks - you don't spend heaps of time looking up "the DC for being on fire" or whatever.

[Dawnblade]

I tried to like 4th ed.  The books looked pretty, A new Combat System that promised to put an end to "well guess we have to wait 8 hours for health and spells again", and it boasted its balance between classes.  But as I said I "Tried" to like 4th ed .... and I really did playing multiple games.  However The pretty books remained pretty and they did kinda fix the stops in dungeons to rest for health and spells, But what killed it for me is there supposed balancing of the classes turned into hey look every class is exactly the same.  Hey I am a warrior i have an at will ability that does 1 Weapon damage, and an encounter ability that does 2 Weapon damage, and a daily that does 3 Weapon damage and they all have some side effect like shifting the opponent, ect and my weapon is a d8 attack!  Ohh hi warrior I am a Mage, I have a 1 D8 at will ability, a 2D8 encounter ability, and a 3d8 daily ability and they all have some ability that after I use one I can take a 5 foot free movement!  And every class is like that the same exact abilities with some minor secondary ability attached .... That is not balanced "That is Boring".  They killed skills to the point where the books are just saying combat and fight till you die why bother with pesky things like none combat related skills.  The devolved to where it is essentially MMO the book series ... Get a party together, find a dungeon, Kill everything in it,  Find boss kill him too, Collect loot and achievement plaque on way out, and then do it again!  Yes it is easy to GM because they removed the hard part of GMing having a story, and skill challenges, and courtly intrigue, and  "Options".  That rant out of the way welcome to a good system.  Yes it takes a little while to learn.  Yes there are a ton of options. Yes it is not a perfect system but then no system is or ever should be cause i think 4th Ed came scarily close to a "Perfectly Balanced System" which started looking like Communism the RPG.  The game Developers did not just give you a game and say play it, They gave you the system mechanics and said here are some examples we have made and feel free to use them but, here is how you make npc now make your own.  Here is how you make an race make your own.  Here is how you make a class now make your own.  And now that you have made your own or used the ones we have provided you make your world and here are a slew of campaign qualities to help you perfect it into your vision!

Long story short.  Give it a try it just might make a believer out of you!

[Morfedel]

I would disagree with you, Dawnblade, as I like 4e and I find there is a lot to like. That being said, this isn't the time or place for an edition war, so I'll skip it, heh!

What I will say is this: I like most of what I see of FC. The one thing I dislike so far is the comments in the other thread that Subdual / Stress is BETTER than Lethal damage, excepting monsters that are immune to the former. The fact that subdual/stress as a viable option is GREAT, but the fact that they are generally better is something I REALLY don't like.

It's something for me to think on.

[aegis]

Generally better, I wouldn't say that. Because don't forget one thing: critical hits with lethal damage kill, most of the time. A special NPC generally can't stand more than one critical hit, seldom two, because his wounds are limited just like a PC's. On the other hand, a critical hit with subdual or stress damage "only" stuns. And against standard NPCs, the efficiency is exactly the same.

So I wouldn't say lethal damage is less effective. It's really effective if you have reasonable chances of dealing a critical hit and if you don't care about the consequences of the kill. If you are ready to spend action dice and are just a little bit lucky, you may often end a dramatic fight in one or two hits. With subdual or stress damage, you can't. However, it's better if you want to wear down your adversary and are cheap on action dice, but it's rather a matter of play style than pure effectiveness in my opinion.

[Crafty_Alex]

I would disagree with you, Dawnblade, as I like 4e and I find there is a lot to like. That being said, this isn't the time or place for an edition war, so I'll skip it, heh!

Thank you. I ever mention this level of maturity is why I like our community so much?

[princekelwyn]

One thing which is both a plus and a minus is the wealth of character options available.  Experienced players will feel like a kid in a candy store, but new players will feel somewhat overwhelmed.

The games also tries hard to stick to the conventions of the fantasy genre, with campaign qualities allowing GM's to tinker the game to fit specific subgenres.  IMHO, although I like both games, D&D and Pathfinder have strayed too far from the genre's roots, allowing the sacred cows of gaming to define the genre instead of the genre defining the game.

One thing I consider a definite plus is that of the twelve base classes in the core rules, only two of them necessarily have any magical abilities.  This means that FC can easily do a magic free campaign while still allowing a large number of options for players.  FC pirates anyone?  Bring them on!

[Dhampire]

FC can easily do a magic free campaign while still allowing a large number of options for players.  FC pirates anyone?  Bring them on!

I really like that FantasyCraft can support settings from Conan: the Barbarian to Crouching Tiger, and from Pirates (with black-powder weapons) to Predator (the ones that hunt Aliens).

[Catodon]

One thing which is both a plus and a minus is the wealth of character options available.  Experienced players will feel like a kid in a candy store, but new players will feel somewhat overwhelmed

Ever since the proliferation of choices in 2e (race/class/kit) the way I have offten dealt with choice overload is to tell players something about the world then get them to come up with a concept without looking at the rules. Sometimes  questions are nessisary for the really new: "do you want to fight or use magic?, are you going to be a charismatic hero type or something else? what species did you like in LOTR?" The concept should be about a sentence long.
Once the player has a concept a truly flexible game like FC can realise it. Having the concept first prunes out the choices.

[Morfedel]

Other than that, one thing I am finding a bit of a con: Fantasy Craft is roll-happy. It uses opposed rolls for lots of things, not to mention a damage methods that trigger saving throws. These methods do have their advantages, but when you have a big battle with lots of action, the rolls do get to get a bit distracting.

In the last FC game I ran, one of the players attacks would generate 4 opposed rolls from me - for every single attack.  So if you don't like to roll dice I would use something akin to Psion's house rule.

In my mind the single greatest selling point of FC is the NPC system, in my opinion it is the absolute best of it's type.

Ok, how does one attack generate four opposed rolls?

IIRC - Unnerving + Massive weapon with a divine damage Essence:

1) Save vs Baffled
2) Save vs Stress Damage
3) Damage Save
4) Save vs Prone

Yeah this was an the most extreme, but others in the same group would reguarly prompt 3 checks.  I don't think it's a flaw in the system, just that many of the tricks key off opposed checks, and if they deal any kind of damage that involves a save then there's a minimum of 2 checks for a lot of combat actions.  You throw in exotic damage and it's a minimum of 3 checks for those same actions.  So if you're someone who hates a bunch of dice rolls during a game this could be potentially a disadvantage.

Upshot is they're almost always very straight forward - easy to calculate DCs or quick skill checks - you don't spend heaps of time looking up "the DC for being on fire" or whatever.

You know, if they do another edition of FC, it would be great if they do something like take an approach that 4e did, having the four defenses rather than saving throws. Or something to reduce the dice rolls somewhat.