Garrote Basics

[Crafty_Alex]

As Krensky noted, "real" garrotes feature handles and a strong ligature - improvised ones would simply be anything the GC described as your garrote when you spent your action die to gain one (a bike chain would function just as well as a long balloon if it fit the game ).

So then every thugee assassin tooling around the nineteenth century Indian countryside used an improvised garrote they blew action dice on to discover amongst their religious paraphernalia?  My point was that the handles are not the important thing, the ligature is.  A length of piano wire around broomsticks is no different mechanically from a shoestring, some light steel chain, a silk scarf, or a necktie are. 

Do you guys really WANT ultragranular rules for garrotes, or do you just want the ability to get improvised ones for free? I look at a standard garrote as a tool specifically designed by a tool maker for strangling someone to death. The end. The thugees had a specifically purposed garrote, thus it would be gear, not an improvised one. Note that with NO melee weapons do we specifically break down the component materials, parts, and manufacturers of these weapons like we do with firearms, and we don't intend to now.

[Krensky]

Sorry Alex, I didn't mean to sound as argumentative at seems I came off.   

I suppose my point stems from a gaming history that predisposes me to an effects based view of gaming systems.  Here that would mean anything long, flexible, handy, and strong enough to be employed as a garrote is a garrote and anything suspect on any of those fronts (like a length of piano wire WITHOUT handles) would get the improvised penalty.  It may also relate to not using the gear system as written in the only SC game I've ran due to a cogent argument (in the constructive debate sense) of one of my players, so that side of the issue didn't occur to me and my view of "If it works as a garrote, it's a garrote; if it kinda works, it's an improvised garrote" plays merry havoc with the the balance of the written gear system.

Sorry, my bad.  I'll be quiet now and go back to giving you guys guys money for your excellent system and using it in the way I want to entertain my friends and myself.   

As a side, and NOT as an argument, the Thugee used yellow head scarves as strangling ligatures.  As it's primary purpose for being carried was to kill wealthy travelers and roll them for spare change not to cover their heads it would in effect, be gear and not clothing using the system as written.

[Crafty_Alex]

Sorry, my bad.  I'll be quiet now and go back to giving you guys guys money for your excellent system and using it in the way I want to entertain my friends and myself.   

Don't do that! Wait...do do the giving us money part, but don't be quiet! My hackles tend to go up when I see the 'But in real life...' arguement raise its ugly and misshapen head, particularly in relation to a gear discussion My job is to uphold the system's coherence...sorry if that made it sound like I was trying to step on you

As a side, and NOT as an argument, the Thugee used yellow head scarves as strangling ligatures.  As it's primary purpose for being carried was to kill wealthy travelers and roll them for spare change not to cover their heads it would in effect, be gear and not clothing using the system as written.

That's right, namely because Spycraft's gear section (like most of its other sections) are concerned with function rather than form. I would go so far as to say it's a garotte with the proteus package (head scarf) applied to it

[Desertpuma]

Or Alex it is a weapon pick concealed as a gadget with the housing being the cloth....

[Krensky]

As a side, and NOT as an argument, the Thugee used yellow head scarves as strangling ligatures.  As it's primary purpose for being carried was to kill wealthy travelers and roll them for spare change not to cover their heads it would in effect, be gear and not clothing using the system as written.

That's right, namely because Spycraft's gear section (like most of its other sections) are concerned with function rather than form. I would go so far as to say it's a garotte with the proteus package (head scarf) applied to it

Interesting, so it's actually a fundamental question of philosophy.  What that question really is I have no fscking clue... Probably something involving the perspective of where to start building the effect from.  Either that or just not using the gear pick system.  I more or less just have the supply sergeant hand the team the gear command thinks they need and they can con and wheedle and steal in character from there to get whatever they think they need.  Then they loose it all when a lucky Thulean heavy weapon attack hits the MULE and blows it up.

Another aside: I never thought I'd wind up in one of these build a widget discussions outside of the Mekton Z mailing list.  Of course, even the headscarf/garrote as a gadget seems sane compared to a system (which I still love) where you build a Bolo's close in defense infinite repeaters as a out of scale melee weapon.   Or that postulates that CP2020 turns into Gundam.

[Salsa]

Please forgive me if this is a bit rushed - things are nuts at work so I'm slipping in this one now:

1) Use Blunt. This is corrected in 2.0 SP.
2) Use your standard E/T for Athletics checks.
3) Correct.
4) The +2 to Grapple checks applies to both improvised and crafted ones. Remember, however, that improvised garottes will still suffer the increased error range and damage penalties, per improvised weapon rules (SP pg. 347)
5) There will be Mastery and Supremecy feats for this weapon, found in World on Fire!

Thanks Alex.
And all who... well gave like 18 other opinions about how to strangle someone.

signed Salsa, who didn't even know who the Thugees were...

[Crafty_Pat]

signed Salsa, who didn't even know who the Thugees were...

Oh dude. Dude! Dude...

Go do research now. And watch The Deceivers.

[Desertpuma]

Or visit www.wikipedia.com and look up the Thugees there

[Crafty_Pat]

Or visit www.wikipedia.com and look up the Thugees there

Sure, but then go out and watch The Deceivers.

Seriously, Indie didn't get the half of it.

[Salsa]

Oh dude. Dude! Dude...

Go do research now. And watch The Deceivers.

Okay... That sounded like an order hehe

Being a moviemaker, I'll sure take your suggestion into account.

[Salsa]

Ohh ok, after some research I finally understand what a thuggee is. The thing is that I wasn't familiar with the term (since I'm brazilian and all).

But okay, thanks hehe

[Crafty_Pat]

Ohh ok, after some research I finally understand what a thuggee is. The thing is that I wasn't familiar with the term (since I'm brazilian and all).

Some of the greatest real world villains ever to stalk the face of the earth.

[Morgenstern]

So then every thugee assassin tooling around the nineteenth century Indian countryside used an improvised garrote they blew action dice on to discover amongst their religious paraphernalia?  My point was that the handles are not the important thing, the ligature is.  A length of piano wire around broomsticks is no different mechanically from a shoestring, some light steel chain, a silk scarf, or a necktie are. 

Actually, the critical difference between "real" and "improvised" weapons is that improvised weapons are improvised! The Thuggee ones are nothing of the sort - they are used for that purpose explictly and their users train with those specific implements, the absence of finger rings or even solid handles of any sort not withstanding.

(That and the Thuggee are definitely big enough to have their own Talent and/or faction feat that allows them to ignore the "improvised" penalties when using any garotte - at least, that's part of how I'd stat them up...)

[Desertpuma]

Let's see that write up Scotty!

I'd love to see it as a Talent or Specialty.

[Krensky]

Actually, the critical difference between "real" and "improvised" weapons is that improvised weapons are improvised! The Thuggee ones are nothing of the sort - they are used for that purpose explictly and their users train with those specific implements, the absence of finger rings or even solid handles of any sort not withstanding.

(That and the Thuggee are definitely big enough to have their own Talent and/or faction feat that allows them to ignore the "improvised" penalties when using any garotte - at least, that's part of how I'd stat them up...)

Yeah, yeah... Nothing to see here Morg. 

  A slight difference of opinion regarding the nature of effect exasperated by forgetting the gear system.    Regardless of the rules (which I'm not arguing) I tend to use the improvised penalty for things that aren't well suited to the role, rather then to things just improvised.  Yes, that means a mens store is full of non-improvised garrotes in my game.  This also relates to not using the gear pick system in my current game.