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Author Topic: Possibly my coolest feat yet :)  (Read 3348 times)
Morgenstern
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« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2011, 10:09:46 AM »

Ok, it seems a bit weird, but maybe that's just me.

Sorry, had a brain fart. THere's a huge difference in how those will work out. A linked full action suffers a -5 penalty, but an opening first action does not. So use the full action to start, then chain up some half actions...

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Feather fall, sorry.  I really need to not type when I'm tired. Feather fall is eligible for the 1 spell point tricks Lasting Spell and Reaching Spell. 1 spell point to start a combo that can be cast during your opponent's turn might be a bit too good.

It is a bit odd, but you can still only run a combo once per round, so I guess it's mostly spending the effort to do somethign out of turn.... Hmm.

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Wildside is pricey, but you don't need to recast it.  Hang a couple attacks or a trip off it and cast it as you engage.

Yeah. Using a combo once or twice per combat doesn't scare me at all - at that point Surge of Speed is WAY better as a feat for extra actions.

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The main issue I have is the easy availability of free action combos.  If that isn't a problem for you, Okay

I am concerned by them, but they mostly seemto either have fairly sttep costs to set up or to execute. Keep banging that angle though. It's probably where something is going to break. If it does, the basic requirment fo rthe C-c-c-combo feat can be shifted to exclude free action tricks from the links and/or openers. Exluding them from the openers might be good future proofing in general, if if can be scripted ina way that doesn't bar using parry trick or a full defense trick. I'd like to preserve that functionality.

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It's just a silly but workable character.  I tend to make a lot of those Smiley

Which is fun to watch as a designer Smiley. I was hoping you'd show up to put this particular concept through it's paces.
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paddyfool
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« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2011, 01:00:08 PM »

I've had a new thought: grappling.

Mix up (grapple) or one of the grab tricks could start a combo with a grapple action.  The rest of the combo could include actions not normally allowed in a grapple (e.g. [whatever nasty attack trick]), since they wouldn't normally be free actions, but would be free in the context of a combo.  And if you're in Open Stance from Wrestling Basics at the start, you could pull off all this outside your turn as a free action (context allowing).  Which all rather gets around the issue of grappling limiting the damage that a character can do...
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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2011, 01:37:18 PM »

Actually, a bullrush+grapple combo would nicely solve the problem that as they stand there's really no good rule for tackling people.
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« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2011, 02:51:32 PM »

Ok, it seems a bit weird, but maybe that's just me.

Sorry, had a brain fart. THere's a huge difference in how those will work out. A linked full action suffers a -5 penalty, but an opening first action does not. So use the full action to start, then chain up some half actions...

Oh, I didn't get that and it makes an important difference. 

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Feather fall, sorry.  I really need to not type when I'm tired. Feather fall is eligible for the 1 spell point tricks Lasting Spell and Reaching Spell. 1 spell point to start a combo that can be cast during your opponent's turn might be a bit too good.

It is a bit odd, but you can still only run a combo once per round, so I guess it's mostly spending the effort to do somethign out of turn.... Hmm.


The most abusive example I can come up with right now is combining a Lasting Spell(Feather Fall) with either an area effect trick like Earth Shaker or a trick that allows movement (Charge or total defense tricks) to allow a sort of melee interrupt optionally with get away.  And you still have your action when that comes up.

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Wildside is pricey, but you don't need to recast it.  Hang a couple attacks or a trip off it and cast it as you engage.

Yeah. Using a combo once or twice per combat doesn't scare me at all - at that point Surge of Speed is WAY better as a feat for extra actions.

Quote
The main issue I have is the easy availability of free action combos.  If that isn't a problem for you, Okay

I am concerned by them, but they mostly seemto either have fairly sttep costs to set up or to execute. Keep banging that angle though. It's probably where something is going to break. If it does, the basic requirment fo rthe C-c-c-combo feat can be shifted to exclude free action tricks from the links and/or openers. Exluding them from the openers might be good future proofing in general, if if can be scripted ina way that doesn't bar using parry trick or a full defense trick. I'd like to preserve that functionality.

Yeah, reactives are not a problem at all IMHO.  They're not only useful, they're very cool.  It's mostly the spell casting combos that bother me.  I guess as long as no one finds a trick that applies to Wish spells, it won't be too bad.   Grin

Perhaps, if the problem is bad enough, spell casting combos might be broken out into their own feat, if there is a way to distinguish them sufficiently.  But maybe it won't come to that.


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It's just a silly but workable character.  I tend to make a lot of those Smiley

Which is fun to watch as a designer Smiley. I was hoping you'd show up to put this particular concept through it's paces.

Some questions about things I see in other posts:

Hypothetically, if a combo has two linked full actions would it take a -10 to all actions?

The Garrote tree gives grapple benefits.  Presumably those or other grapple benefits bought as tricks could be used in a combo but not the ones in the grapple action itself.  Correct?

Paddyfool mentioned the Practiced X tricks.  Do they still count as having a check for purposes of combos?  I'd say yes.  There's also Charge that allows but seemingly doesn't require a free attack. 
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Agent 333
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« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2011, 08:14:48 PM »

I'd say that disallowing Spellcasting in a combo is a decent limitation. Spellcasting is already one of the most powerful actions a character can take, no need to make it better, IMO.
I'd like to see either a follow up feat or verbiage in the main feat that lets a character spend Edge to extend a combo temporarily. Like say, have as a defined combo a 2 link chain, then the ability to spend an Edge to add one more link to the chain. Or maybe make it 2 Edge so the aforementioned Edge granting tricks don't make an automatic extra link.

Something is bugging me about the cost of longer combos. You're giving up proficiencies you could be using on new tricks to make it more likely that you'll lose the action die you're betting. Seems like a pretty crappy deal to me. Maybe the longer combos are more powerful and thus more worth it, but something is just telling me the Action Die betting mechanic just doesn't work the way it should. Maybe instead of having to do the full combo every time you declare how many steps you want to do when you bet the AD? And you're held to it, no extension. Or maybe pair it up with my earlier example, and you can spend an Edge or two to readjust your bet midway through the combo?
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« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2011, 09:56:42 PM »

Something is bugging me about the cost of longer combos. You're giving up proficiencies you could be using on new tricks to make it more likely that you'll lose the action die you're betting. Seems like a pretty crappy deal to me. Maybe the longer combos are more powerful and thus more worth it, but something is just telling me the Action Die betting mechanic just doesn't work the way it should. Maybe instead of having to do the full combo every time you declare how many steps you want to do when you bet the AD? And you're held to it, no extension. Or maybe pair it up with my earlier example, and you can spend an Edge or two to readjust your bet midway through the combo?

You are able to declare how many steps you want to do each time. Smiley 

For full BAB characters, it seems like attack bonuses generally exceed defenses as levels increase, at least for Def VI and lower and probably for higher ones as well.  Since a 1 isn't an automatic miss (as far as I know Smiley ), a character may be able to have a 100% chance for each link.  These guys should be able to pull off long combos most of the time.  Medium and low BAB guys are going to have to be more careful but that makes sense.  Skill based tricks are useful too, especially if you have the Mark feat to identify that Signature Skill X guy Smiley
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« Reply #51 on: July 03, 2011, 11:27:21 AM »

Something is bugging me about the cost of longer combos. You're giving up proficiencies you could be using on new tricks to make it more likely that you'll lose the action die you're betting. Seems like a pretty crappy deal to me. Maybe the longer combos are more powerful and thus more worth it, but something is just telling me the Action Die betting mechanic just doesn't work the way it should. Maybe instead of having to do the full combo every time you declare how many steps you want to do when you bet the AD? And you're held to it, no extension. Or maybe pair it up with my earlier example, and you can spend an Edge or two to readjust your bet midway through the combo?

You are able to declare how many steps you want to do each time. Smiley 

For full BAB characters, it seems like attack bonuses generally exceed defenses as levels increase, at least for Def VI and lower and probably for higher ones as well.  Since a 1 isn't an automatic miss (as far as I know Smiley ), a character may be able to have a 100% chance for each link.  These guys should be able to pull off long combos most of the time.  Medium and low BAB guys are going to have to be more careful but that makes sense.  Skill based tricks are useful too, especially if you have the Mark feat to identify that Signature Skill X guy Smiley

D'oh. I didn't re-read the feat before posting, and was working from my own faulty memory of it. That helps a lot...
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« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2011, 12:54:31 PM »

Re: Spellcasting tricks  how would this work?

Spellcasting tricks associated with a specific spell may be included as linked actions in a combo.

That solves my issue with easy free actions from certain spells without completely removing them.

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Morgenstern
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« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2011, 03:19:48 PM »

That does seem to take care of some of the fornt end issues. What I'm seeing is I'll probably have ot divide upt he text for opening tricks and linked tricks, as the two categories do have slightly different requirements.

Edit: greatly refined first pargraph on combo creation, which should kill most free action opening concerns. Clarified only linked full actions suffer the -5 penalty.

That should wrap it up, unless I've missed any other concerns Smiley.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 03:36:29 PM by Morgenstern » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: August 16, 2012, 10:27:08 AM »

I'm now wondering if it might dramatically simplify this tech to make the feat always have 2 steps (opening, link) and then have adding a second link be bought as another feat. Breaks up the text more manageably and eliminates questions about buying links with proficiencies.
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Morgenstern
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« Reply #55 on: August 16, 2012, 10:59:07 AM »

So more like~

C-c-c-combo! Basics
   Warriors throughout history and literature have signature attacks earned through years of practice or the hard lessons the battlefield. Now you have one too.
   Benefit: Create a combo by choosing an “opening” trick and the first “linked” trick in the combo. Opening tricks must be chosen from tricks requiring a half action check, a full action check, a save, a defensive reaction like parry, or a total defense trick that creates a check. Linked tricks must require a free action check or a half action check. If you choose a Spellcasting trick, you must associate it with a single specific spell when used in this combo.
   Once per round when you have the opportunity to perform your opening trick, you may set aside your largest action die before rolling to declare you are starting the combo. If you succeed, you must immediately perform the next trick in the combo as a free action. If you take and succeed on every action in the combo the action die set aside is returned to you, otherwise it is discarded. Once a combo has started you may not perform any other checks until it has completed or failed. If a combo produces additional actions or free attacks, they are resolved after the combo is complete.
   Special: You may take this feat more than once, choosing a different pair of tricks each time to create a new combo. You may not apply additional tricks to your linked actions during a combo.

C-c-c-combo! Mastery
   Like a well oiled killing machine, you string together moves that others can only dream of.
   Benefit: You choose a second linked trick to add to each of your combos. Each time you declare you are starting a combo you choose in advance exactly how many links you are going to attempt. If a linked trick succeeds, you must then take the next linked trick as a free action until you either fail to perform a linked trick or the declared combo is complete.

   Example: The bladesmaster Seska has the two link “Mix-up (feint) into bury the blade into shove” combo. On her initiative count, before using her mix-up trick she declares she will be attempting the full combo. She sets aside her largest action die and then rolls her feint action. If that succeeds, she immediately makes an attack with the bury the blade trick. If that attack succeeds (even if she doesn’t roll 4 over the target’s defense to gain the additional keen benefit) she then makes another attack with the shove trick. If the shove succeeds she gets her action die back. If any of those three checks fail, the combo ends at that point and she discards the action die.

C-c-c-combo! Supremacy
   With seemingly impossible grace you drown your foe in precisely choreographed actions.
   Benefit: You choose a third linked trick to add to each of your combos.

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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #56 on: August 16, 2012, 11:50:09 AM »

Since you're making a feat chain out of it, I'd be tempted to have the 2nd and 3rd feats add something to increase the likelihood of pulling the combo off, like being able to roll the action die you've set aside and add the result to a single check (mastery) then all checks (supremacy)
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« Reply #57 on: August 16, 2012, 12:14:15 PM »

I follow but my concern would be you're eliminating the bet and therefore the risk. If you want to spend other action dice to insure a success and get your die back, nothing's stopping you...

Without a downside, in this case an element of risk, they'd have to pick up severe limitations elsewhere. These feats give you time (actions) which puts them into the single most powerful category of effects.

It may be best to treat these more akin to the -2 for one extra attack, -5 for 2 extra attacks and simply truncate the chain at 2 feats...

Then add a form of C-c-comb Breaker as an alterantive method of expanding on it Cool.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 12:22:56 PM by Morgenstern » Logged

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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #58 on: August 16, 2012, 12:34:41 PM »

AD -- and feat slots -- are in general a terribly limited resource, so the amount of times you can actually even attempt a combo are automatically limited (and will be further curtailed by the need/desire to keep some aside to activate crits). The Mastery and Supremacy feats actually providing any benefit at all are entirely dependent on your die rolls not sucking, which makes it a non-ideal investment.

Heck, even just limiting the boost to standard NPCs would make the extra feat (and proficiency) slots worth it.

Also, failed combos should leave you flatfooted. Broken combos (totally a chance feat keyed on the roll of the AD) should leave you stunned
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Morgenstern
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« Reply #59 on: August 16, 2012, 12:44:02 PM »

AD -- and feat slots -- are in general a terribly limited resource, so the amount of times you can actually even attempt a combo are automatically limited (and will be further curtailed by the need/desire to keep some aside to activate crits). The Mastery and Supremacy feats actually providing any benefit at all are entirely dependent on your die rolls not sucking, which makes it a non-ideal investment.

*snicker* Never underestimate the capacity of a player to make his actions a sure bet. You can attempt the combo nigh-infinitely. You can only afford to fail at it 3-4 times Smiley.

Spending an action die to take and extra half action of a specific type is a pretty well established exchange in the advanced class core abilities. The basic tradeoffs for C-c-c-combo I think are pretty sound: feat cost instead of core ability slot, risk of losing action by failing on opener vs. prospect of recovering spent die. Its expandibility thats at issue. Perhaps the original price of 1 proficiency for a new link is still the way to go. It adds a paragraph to the core feat, but its potentially more equitable and draws form a different resource pool (while retaining the tension against learning tricks to use in combos...).

*ponder*
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