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Author Topic: Possibly my coolest feat yet :)  (Read 3533 times)
Sletchman
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« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2011, 04:19:38 AM »

The worst I can think of edge wise is Combo Supremacy + Qi Supremacy - generate 2 edge as a half action.  With Lucky Break you can almost start a fight with 4 Edge, but at this stage we're 8 Feats deep, so you should be pretty damn awesome.

I think massive damage would be a more game balance altering effect of this feat, but even then it is a pretty big risk (unless your GM hands out action dice like candy).  Something like Piledriver + Guillotine Kick + Pummel would be pretty horrific (potentially 7x base unarmed damage as a half action), still a minimum of 6 feats (7 really), so I'm cool with that level of amazing.
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paddyfool
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« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2011, 04:47:55 AM »

I like the idea.  I particularly like that it doesn't stack well with most other multiple-action features, such as Blackened Sky, since it demands a high chance of success.  A few ways to spend it:

- A high prestidigitation archer could still try and stack it with Blackened Sky and Multi-Shot, if they used the Distracting Shot trick (AC) to make someone easier to hit at the beginning of the combo.  (As a rules query - what would count as "success" for multi-shot?  Hitting with any arrows, or all of them?)  Further tricks for shots with a high chance of success (such as Eagle Eye from Bow Mastery, or the Practiced Shot trick) could also be added, but imho probably wouldn't be worth the proficiencies.

- Similarly, melee-combos intended to take down hard targets could start off well with Mix-up (Feint) and/or Toppling swing and/or Overpowering Strike and/or Forced Opening (not that you'd want a high error range with this mechanism), since these would increase the chance of success of other attacks.  As I see you've done with the example you gave, now that I look at it.

- Any combo utilising the Practiced trick line would be good, since they're effectively auto-hits against many opponents.  

- One thing this does stack well with visavis multiple attacks is the Cleave line.  Any combo with a good chance of killing multiple standard characters (e.g. Blade Flurry + Shank from the Knife feat tree + whatever) could also generate further free attacks (and free moves, with Cleave Supremacy) rather handily.

Looking into Edge-generation, the only tricks I can see which specifically generate edge are tied to the Aggro, Lionheart, and Giant Slayer lines from the AC, although the effects of feats which grant edge from single or multiple successful actions such as Combo Supremacy, Qi Supremacy and Blocking Basics could also be fairly relevant (as Sletchman pointed out).  However, most of the tricks that spend edge require large quantities, so you would generally need to chain multiple edge-generation tricks before using an edge-spending one.  Not sure this is altogether abusable, although you could complement the Stout of Heart stance from the Lionheart chain rather handily with a Face of Death-[other edge gen trick]-Roar of the Pride combo, as long as you only take the final step when it's useful.
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Agent 333
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« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2011, 03:03:45 PM »

Lets see...
C-c-combo!
Lionheart Basics
Haze Basics
Blade-Weaver Basics
Blade-Weaver Supremacy

5 feats, easily doable by a level 5 Soldier. Unfortunately none of them are available as bonus feats from a specialty, so we'll have to wait till level 7 to actually build our uber-combo with proficiencies. (using Fight-On's seldom used alternate clause for two extra proficiencies, meaning you're down another feat). Make your Speciality Jester and your level 6 feat Aggro Mastery...

So, Level 7 soldier dedicating his build to the combo, can do this:
Sweeping Slash + Face of Death + Touch of Cool Waters + Your Father Smelt of Elderberries + Bladestorm
If successful, gain 4 Edge and use it all in one half action, having Threatened, Anticipated, and Taunted your way to victory. This build rewards a high Intimidate, Sense Motive, and Wisdom (to further increase your Intimidate and Sense Motive mods, and your defense bonus from the Anticipate). The synergy between being able to Taunt and Anticipate the same opponent in one action alone is probably worth a feat. Everything else is just gravy...
Probably not the most broken use possible, but certainly a fun one.
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Agent 333
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« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2011, 03:05:38 PM »

Having said all that, the best use of the feat is probably to link two tricks you already have and leave it at that. Throwing more resources in to increase your chance of losing an AD seems a bit wasteful, if cool.
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Bill Whitmore
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« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2011, 07:34:59 PM »

As a rules query - what would count as "success" for multi-shot?  Hitting with any arrows, or all of them?

I'd recommend the latter, hitting with any arrow counts as a success.  The Practiced abilities already set a precedent with multiple targets with it only counting as a failure if you fail against every target.
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Morgenstern
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« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2011, 01:31:12 AM »

I'm going with any success is success. Only failure is failure. There is some mention in that int he example. I think I'll add a second example to smooth out the presentation of this concept.
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paddyfool
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« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2011, 03:21:57 AM »

Now, how might characters I've got use this:

Bloke 1 (Nimble Human Burglar/Deadeye): we're talking Mix up (trip) + Multi-shot.  Take their feet from under them and fill them with arrows.

Bloke 2 (Fire brave ogre assassin in a campaign with fast feats and proficiencies): Shield Block + Overpowering strike.  Stop their strike and send them to the ground in return.  Plus maybe some rather lethal trick to follow.  Come to that, this does seem particularly effective if starting with a defensive action, since you can normally get off a couple of combat actions when it comes to your round anyway.

Bloke 3 (Halfling captain/monster slayer): Not sure, as he hasn't seen any combat yet, and only has one trick (Pick on the Big Guy).  I was considering taking Get Over Here, and a combo of that and Pick on the Big Guy could be quite entertaining (although harpooning dragons etc. would require a certain suspension of disbelief visavis relative mass unless he was strapped into a saddle or something... and I'm not sure he'd count as being 2 sizes smaller if mounted on something that wasn't).  EDIT: Actually, there's no way this character would take C-c-combo, now that I think about it.  "Your largest action die" means a much steeper cost for monster slayers than other characters.

EDIT: In short, all of them would have fun two-step options out of taking the feat, making it a reasonably tempting option, but I don't know if they'd use longer chains much.  Then again, they aren't soldiers or martial artists...

Incidentally, another rules query: would it be possible to take free actions mid-combo that aren't directly enabled by the tricks themselves, e.g. drawing weapons with quick draw, or free moves from Cleave Supremacy?  I'm guessing not, as the other links in the chain must be taken immediately...
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 02:15:25 AM by paddyfool » Logged
Mister Andersen
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« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2011, 06:04:21 AM »

Actually unless he's got some sort of ranged tripped ability, bloke one would be multi-shot + mix-up (trip)
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Morgenstern
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« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2011, 06:34:24 AM »

Incidentally, another rules query: would it be possible to take free actions mid-combo that aren't directly enabled by the tricks themselves, e.g. drawing weapons with quick draw, or free moves from Cleave Supremacy?  I'm guessing not, as the other links in the chain must be taken immediately...

Free actions that don't require checks are (currently) allowed. So smack-talking and Quick Draw-enabled free actions to change or load weapons are possible mid-combo.  That should allow some fun sequences with a repeating crossbow Cheesy.

The current big question mark for me is interactions with Cleave feats. Right now you're losing those free actions unless they are generated by the last action in the combo. Which I'm probably ok with.
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paddyfool
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« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2011, 07:19:53 AM »

Actually unless he's got some sort of ranged tripped ability, bloke one would be multi-shot + mix-up (trip)

No rule against shooting people who are next to you... and if I'm wrong and there is, you simply add a 5' step in the middle of the sequence.
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Forcegypsy
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« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2011, 09:09:22 AM »

Actually unless he's got some sort of ranged tripped ability, bloke one would be multi-shot + mix-up (trip)

No rule against shooting people who are next to you... and if I'm wrong and there is, you simply add a 5' step in the middle of the sequence.
There is no rule against adjacent shooting. You're golden.
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« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2011, 09:37:24 AM »

Actually unless he's got some sort of ranged tripped ability, bloke one would be multi-shot + mix-up (trip)

No rule against shooting people who are next to you... and if I'm wrong and there is, you simply add a 5' step in the middle of the sequence.

And don't forget the Trip quality/upgrade now lets you trip within Close Quarters
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Blankbeard
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« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2011, 08:13:04 PM »

The only remaining thing that really bothers me is that the combo Your Father Smelt of Elderberries + Mix it up(Bull rush) is a standard action while Mix it up (Bull rush) + Your Father Smelt of Elderberries is a full action. 

I'm somewhat concerned about the ability to use free action spells (Freefall and wildside) to launch free action combos. 

Oh, also, I assume mix-up (Taunt) is a different trick than mix-up (Fient) for purposes of combos.

Also, here's a character idea:  I give you Cupid.  Use unnerving shot and beguiling so people you shoot with your bow become fixated on you Smiley

Take a Striking Swindler and start out as a Soldier.  Use one of your origin skills on Sense Motive.  Get Aggro Basics and C-c-c-combo along with bow proficiency and the unnerving shot, mix-up(Taunt), and mix-up(Distract).  Make a combo out of unnerving and taunt.  Thanks to aggro basics, you can taunt up to 3 characters with each taunt and substitute fixated for 1d6 rounds.  Fixating up to 9 people per round is pretty good crowd control  and the stance from aggro basics gives you a +4 on your attempts.

Take Soldier through 3rd level.  Take Aggro mastery and Fan Service and use your proficiency to add Your Father Smelt... to your combo.  That lets you fixate another 3 and gives you a point of edge to taunt again.  Or do something other than taunt and still be able to fire off crowd control as a free action.  Fan service gives fixation of a non-random duration that can be boosted with goods and services.  Engaging diversion lets you use it on 3 characters at a time.

After that, it's up to you.  2 levels of Keeper lets you use Trade Secret on Impress or Sense motive for nigh unstoppable crowd control.    You qualify for Gallant without anything else if you want to be more fighty. 

Sorry, the idea of raining down love arrows on the battlefield just struck me as funny. 

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Morgenstern
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« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2011, 07:16:50 AM »

The only remaining thing that really bothers me is that the combo Your Father Smelt of Elderberries + Mix it up(Bull rush) is a standard action while Mix it up (Bull rush) + Your Father Smelt of Elderberries is a full action.

Since the player chose the order, I'm not worried about it. Maybe he had a much better chance at succeeding on bull rushes so wanted it up front.

Quote
I'm somewhat concerned about the ability to use free action spells (Freefall and wildside) to launch free action combos.

Heh. Freefall and what trick? Actions alone don't start combos. Comboes that cost spell points to start are depleting your limited stock. Recasting wildside just to start a combo also sounds kinda pricey.

Quote
Oh, also, I assume mix-up (Taunt) is a different trick than mix-up (Fient) for purposes of combos.

That was my intent, yes.

Quote
Also, here's a character idea:  I give you Cupid.  Use unnerving shot and beguiling so people you shoot with your bow become fixated on you Smiley
<snip>
Sorry, the idea of raining down love arrows on the battlefield just struck me as funny.  

How are you getting them fixated?

My only problem with that sequence comes from Aggro Mastery (elederberries can be used on chickens to gain Edge, as it doesn't specify adversaries). The extra actions aren't what makes it silly Smiley.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 07:23:38 AM by Morgenstern » Logged

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Blankbeard
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« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2011, 09:08:51 AM »

The only remaining thing that really bothers me is that the combo Your Father Smelt of Elderberries + Mix it up(Bull rush) is a standard action while Mix it up (Bull rush) + Your Father Smelt of Elderberries is a full action.

Since the player chose the order, I'm not worried about it. Maybe he had a much better chance at succeeding on bull rushes so wanted it up front.

Ok, it seems a bit weird, but maybe that's just me.

Quote
I'm somewhat concerned about the ability to use free action spells (Freefall and wildside) to launch free action combos.

Heh. Freefall and what trick? Actions alone don't start combos. Comboes that cost spell points to start are depleting your limited stock. Recasting wildside just to start a combo also sounds kinda pricey.

Feather fall, sorry.  I really need to not type when I'm tired.   Feather fall is eligible for the 1 spell point tricks Lasting Spell and Reaching Spell.   1 spell point to start a combo that can be cast during your opponent's turn might be a bit too good.  If needed you can use the Spell Catcher stance to power it.  Admittedly, it's a 3 feat cost and that combined with some GC surveillance may be enough to stop any abuse.  But being able to take 2 or more set actions at any time while still retaining your own turn sounds very good.

Wildside is pricey, but you don't need to recast it.  Hang a couple attacks or a trip off it and cast it as you engage. 

The main issue I have is the easy availability of free action combos.  If that isn't a problem for you, Okay.  I can't test any of this stuff so I have to go by how it looks which isn't always accurate.

Quote
Oh, also, I assume mix-up (Taunt) is a different trick than mix-up (Fient) for purposes of combos.

That was my intent, yes.

Quote
Also, here's a character idea:  I give you Cupid.  Use unnerving shot and beguiling so people you shoot with your bow become fixated on you Smiley
<snip>
Sorry, the idea of raining down love arrows on the battlefield just struck me as funny. 

How are you getting them fixated?

Ack, I got my taunter and my distractor mixed up.  Bard, not Swindler.  So Fan Service is single target.

My only problem with that sequence comes from Aggro Mastery (elederberries can be used on chickens to gain Edge, as it doesn't specify adversaries). The extra actions aren't what makes it silly Smiley.

Not intended as a weakness of C-c-combo.  It's just a silly but workable character.  I tend to make a lot of those Smiley
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