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Author Topic: Possibly my coolest feat yet :)  (Read 3442 times)
Mister Andersen
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« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2011, 06:28:11 PM »

That's why I suggested an initiative action, which are all about responding to the actions of others
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« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2011, 07:38:04 PM »

Since the current weapon chains don't give a trick until mastery, and you have to have the trick before you can put it into a combo, that restriction already exists. Simpler/weaker tricks that only require a forte are kind of self correcting. Easier to get = less potent.
So if I were to make a new hammer trick, I should require Hammer Mastery, yes?

Directly on the subject of combos, can you take other free actions with a combo.  Knife Mastery lets me fient as a free action.  Can I do so in the middle of a combo or do I need to build the fient into the combo?

Also, the way I read the feat the first trick determines what sort of action the combo takes.  Would it be better to instead say that the combo takes the same action as the longest component?  Frex, Back at you! - Mixup(Bullrush) is a flavorful combo but it looks like it would be a free action.  Is that right and if so intended?
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« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2011, 02:48:49 AM »

Seems really really nice. I'll try something next week-end or so. It reminds me of these excellent Mortal Kombat-like combo tricks that were presented as teasers for Fantasy Craft but never actually made it to the final book. I guess they were not fitting the generic tone of the game, sure, but I'd like to see them appear in an oriental-inspired setting.  Smiley
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« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2011, 06:44:57 PM »

So if I were to make a new hammer trick, I should require Hammer Mastery, yes?

I think it would depend on the trick's effect and overall potency. If the new trick can only be used with hammers, I'd certainly consider the benfits of including Hammer B/M/S as a prerequisite, but I don't think that should be presented as a hard and fast rule.

Either way, I'd prefer for C-c-c-combo! to introduce the minimum number of restrictions on tricks beyond the trick's own text, including prerequisites. The "must pick a specific spell along with a spellcasting trick" is already going to be annoyingly wordy, but the reality is that the spellcasting check is the only check in the game that has a whole chapter devoted to all the things it does Smiley. Its really sort of an umbrella description for about 250 different checks.

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Directly on the subject of combos, can you take other free actions with a combo.  Knife Mastery lets me fient as a free action.  Can I do so in the middle of a combo or do I need to build the fient into the combo?

While slightly worisome, unless a more terrifying free action is put forward I'm prepared to continue allowing free actions to come and go as the please rather than add even more verbage to block it.

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Also, the way I read the feat the first trick determines what sort of action the combo takes.

Correct.

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Would it be better to instead say that the combo takes the same action as the longest component?  Frex, Back at you! - Mixup(Bullrush) is a flavorful combo but it looks like it would be a free action.  Is that right and if so intended?

Both are correct and intended. The -5 penalty is the is the drawback for having a full action folded in, and back at you is still reliant on someone else handing you a trigger. After getting that bullrush in the face for flinging things at you, people may stop flinging things at you Smiley.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 02:44:28 AM by Morgenstern » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2011, 07:58:31 PM »


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Directly on the subject of combos, can you take other free actions with a combo.  Knife Mastery lets me fient as a free action.  Can I do so in the middle of a combo or do I need to build the fient into the combo?

While slightly worisome, unless a more terrifying free action is put forward I'm prepared to continue allowing free actions to come and go as the please rather than add even more verbage to block it.


I dunno. These combos could get crazy enough without being able to insert free actions throughout at will (the permutations of Quick Draw are nearly endless). Allowing it also produces the capacity for a combo 'fork': in the case of the free feint, if it's allowed without being built-in, it *could* make the attack that follows really savage, but the combo proceeds even if the feint fails, albeit in a weaker state than the user would like, which runs counter to the "if you biff part of the combo, you're done" spirit of the original text. In fact, with Quick Draw involved, you could conceivably end your own combo if the feint fails ("I handle item for free to put my weapon away, so I can't do the rest of the combo--oh well."). And then we're into endless loops of "Quick Draw says I can put it away" versus "Knife basics says you can't" and then my head explodes.  Smiley

I'm in favor of requiring that any action, free or otherwise, be scripted into the combo. At first blush, it's just a factor of maintaining the sanity of the thing. If nothing else, it's a touch of future-proofing.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 08:05:22 PM by Gentry » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2011, 08:00:51 PM »

each time you level you may spend a proficiency to add an additional link to the combo.

Proficiencies are not gained at every level. Can you strip an existing proficiency away to fuel your combo?
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« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2011, 02:06:11 AM »

I dunno. These combos could get crazy enough without being able to insert free actions throughout at will (the permutations of Quick Draw are nearly endless). Allowing it also produces the capacity for a combo 'fork': in the case of the free feint, if it's allowed without being built-in, it *could* make the attack that follows really savage, but the combo proceeds even if the feint fails, albeit in a weaker state than the user would like, which runs counter to the "if you biff part of the combo, you're done" spirit of the original text. In fact, with Quick Draw involved, you could conceivably end your own combo if the feint fails ("I handle item for free to put my weapon away, so I can't do the rest of the combo--oh well."). And then we're into endless loops of "Quick Draw says I can put it away" versus "Knife basics says you can't" and then my head explodes.  Smiley

I'm in favor of requiring that any action, free or otherwise, be scripted into the combo. At first blush, it's just a factor of maintaining the sanity of the thing. If nothing else, it's a touch of future-proofing.

"I can't complete the combo" ISN'T the combo's problem Roll Eyes. If you can't complete it, you shouldn't start it, and your action die is forfeit. NOTHING in the text suggest "oh well, here's your die back." Quick draw isn't doing anything utward I see other than what quick draw is supposed to do - let you change up weapons or get something reloaded in a a timely fasion. If someone wants to spend a feat to let their comboes have two different weapons in them (I'll open with a maul and middle and end with a greatsword!") I'm not completely adverse so far. And quick draw allowing a low reload weapon to be used rapidly is a cost the character has paid that should probably be respected.

I don't have a definite opinion so far, but quick draw is not freaking me out for the cost. Amongst other things I'm not adverse to characters being able to speak during a combo, which is interspersing free actions. Lets see more examples of how it could break down under the added presure.

Upon consideration I do see a trend - free actions that don't require checks don't seem to bother me, while free actons that do require checks are being watched. Maybe the distinction is a combo shouldn't allow any other checks to be made while it's advancing...
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 02:40:03 AM by Morgenstern » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2011, 02:35:25 AM »

each time you level you may spend a proficiency to add an additional link to the combo.

Proficiencies are not gained at every level. Can you strip an existing proficiency away to fuel your combo?

Per RAW, no. If your GM has a general rule about taking back/reassigning  previously spent  proficiencies in place then you could apply it here, but otherwise I wouldn't warp the game just for this. Also, if there's a rule in place about not having to spend proficiencies on the level they are gained it might ave some impact. Soldier odd levels are a way to get more proficiences and at other levels than the Career table offers.
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« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2011, 02:41:30 AM »

That's why I suggested an initiative action, which are all about responding to the actions of others

I will dig into countermeasures after the core text is stable, so keep brainstorming, but don't expect elaborate answers yet. I'm inclined to have most counters be purchased with proficiecies (either as advanced actions or tricks) to make them readily available to non-combat classes, though the idea of usurping a combo in progress and making it your own is probably operating at the feat level.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 02:43:38 AM by Morgenstern » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2011, 02:57:32 AM »

Slight adjustment to text on the tricks that can be used, and moved all the addenum into a seperate paragraph at the end, including a new check-based restriction on what else you can do during a combo. I know its pretty fiddly, but please re-read it all closely. The execution is stronger for your concerns Smiley.
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« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2011, 07:32:39 AM »

Force Pull + Lightsaber Slash and Lightsaber Slash + Force Push both seem to fit quite nicely with this mechanic
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« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2011, 09:53:10 AM »

Could you use this to say:
Sweeping Slash + Bladestorm + Topple & Gut whoever's left?
Or would you have to target one of the two people in the original Sweeping Slash? Or would you have to say who's getting Topple&Gutted before you even start, even though the other two tricks hit multiple people?
Furthermore, do you get your AD back if your target dies before the combo completes, or is it gone?

EDIT: It occurs to me that my example shows that it's possible to abuse the crap out of Edge granting tricks in a combo...
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 09:57:36 AM by Agent 333 » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2011, 01:59:29 PM »

Could you use this to say:
Sweeping Slash + Bladestorm + Topple & Gut whoever's left?
Or would you have to target one of the two people in the original Sweeping Slash? Or would you have to say who's getting Topple&Gutted before you even start, even though the other two tricks hit multiple people?

There is currently no restriction on each action in the combo targeting the same foe or being declared in advance - I feel it meets far more cinematic demands if you can jump from target to target. It also kinda implies you were deep enough in the thick of things to have multiple targets... Getting players to leap into that sort of scenario is a plus not a minus Smiley.

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Furthermore, do you get your AD back if your target dies before the combo completes, or is it gone?

Poof. Not the combo's fault you ran out of targets. Sounds like a die well spent to me.

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It occurs to me that my example shows that it's possible to abuse the crap out of Edge granting tricks in a combo...

Show me an example. This sounds promising Smiley.
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« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2011, 02:10:09 PM »

Force Pull + Lightsaber Slash and Lightsaber Slash + Force Push both seem to fit quite nicely with this mechanic.

Seems reasonable and easy to visualize.

Keep in mind you are paying a feat to get an extra action. A single, specific action that can only be used after another single specific action. An action that is contingent on the first action and costs you an action die if you don't land both rolls. While tastey as all heck, I really can't say this thing is a better deal than just taking one of the "3 attacks, all at -2" feats that are already out there. Its not as versitile as Surge of Speed or even Contempt. What's best about it to my eye is that it's like Mix-up: one value proposition that can be aplied to a variety of different actions. Its 60 or 70 different solidly desirable feats all packed down into one block of text. If you wrote some of these combos out as individual feats, I think they'd look quite attractive. Its the corner cases that need to be checked (things like what happens when whirling serpent stance gets into the mix). I'm pretty happy that the opportunity costs put it in the range of other extra action feats. Eery combo is one less feat that could be doing something else for that character. Believe me, I'm sensitive to the value of extra actions. Time (in the form of actions) is probably THE most critical resource a character has.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 02:12:11 PM by Morgenstern » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2011, 09:43:54 PM »

Hmmm, I'll have to look at it more closely, but two or three Edge granting feats and something to use it on would be pretty nasty. Of course, we're 4 feats plus a handful of proficiencies in at that point, so you pretty much have to be a Soldier to get it at a reasonably low level... I'll do a full build when I have time and show you what I come up with.
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