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Author Topic: Possibly my coolest feat yet :)  (Read 3454 times)
Morgenstern
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« on: June 25, 2011, 01:05:08 PM »

Ok, this is pretty seriously open ended, so I'd love to get some feedback on how you might maximize this option to create some horrific chain of effects. I want to get the text as tight as possible, so please, be evil.

NEW BASIC COMBAT FEATS

   C-c-c-combo!
   Warriors throughout history and literature have signature attacks earned through years of practice or the hard lessons the battlefield. Now you have one too.
   Benefit: To create a Combo you choose two different tricks you know; one to be the opening trick and the other to be the first link in the combo. Opening tricks must be chosen from tricks requiring a half action check, a full action check, a save, a defensive reaction like parry, or a total defense trick that creates a check. Linked tricks must require a free action check, a half action check, or a full action check. If you choose a Spellcasting trick, it must be associated with a single specific spell when used in this combo. Once you have started building a combo, each time you level you may spend a proficiency to add an additional link to the combo. A combo may never include the same trick more than once.
   Once per round when you have the opportunity to make a check as part of an opening trick, you may set aside your largest action die before rolling to declare you are starting a combo. If the combo has more than 1 link you choose in advance exactly how many links you are going to attempt (i.e. if you have a 4 link combo you don’t have to attempt the entire combo on every occasion). If you succeed on the opening trick, you may immediately perform the next trick in the combo as a free action. If a linked trick succeeds, you may then take the next linked trick as a free action until you either fail to perform a linked trick or the declared combo is complete.
   Once a combo has started you may not perform any other checks until it has completed or failed. You may not apply additional tricks to your linked actions. If a linked trick normally requires a full action to perform, all checks associated with that trick suffer a –5 penalty. If you take and succeed on every action in the combo the action die set aside is returned to you, otherwise it is discarded.
   Special: You may take this feat more than once, choosing a different pair of tricks each time to create a new combo.  

   Example: The bladesmaster Seska has the two link “Mix-up (feint) into bury the blade into shove” combo. On her initiative count, before using her mix-up trick she declares she will be attempting the full combo. She sets aside her largest action die and then rolls her feint action. If that succeeds, she immediately makes an attack with the bury the blade trick. If that attack succeeds (even if she doesn’t roll 4 over the target’s defense to gain the additional keen benefit) she then makes another attack with the shove trick. If the shove succeeds she gets her action die back. If any of those three checks fail, the combo ends at that point and she discards the action die.

« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 03:45:34 PM by Morgenstern » Logged

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Desertpuma
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« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2011, 01:19:53 PM »

Very nifty, Scott!
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Morgenstern
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« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2011, 01:31:08 PM »

Try building something with it - either a combo or a whole character with a combo. I want to see if I've built enough/the right safeguards into it.

I tried writing it as a stand alone new system for spending proficiencies, but the entry cost just didn't seem high enough for an extra attack/action. I want to stick with the 1 action die "bet" mechanic, as that works equally well for PCs and NPCs. I'll add some addiitonal text for using this in NPC construction. I also have an idea for a feat chain or some follow on feats once the root is stable.
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« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2011, 04:39:30 PM »

How would this work along side an ability like the Martial Artist's Master's Touch?
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glimmerrat
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« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2011, 05:13:43 PM »

How about this:

C-c-c-combo Breaker!
You're always ready for the other shoe to drop...
Benefit: When  you are the target of an action made as part of a Combo, if you also possess a Combo that contains the same trick then you may cause that action to fail. You may immediately take an action to use your own Combo containing that trick, targeting your attacker. You may use this ability a number of times per session equal to the number of Combos that you possess.
Special: You may take this feat more than once, choosing a different trick each time.
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Morgenstern
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« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2011, 11:08:34 PM »

How would this work along side an ability like the Martial Artist's Master's Touch?

Hmm. My inclination is to keep the two very seperate - extra actions that buffed up worries me. As its worded now you could probably start a combo with an action that had 2 tricks as long as one of them was your opening trick, but I can tighten it up that you can't apply a second trick to each of the links in the combo...
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Morgenstern
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« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2011, 11:09:58 PM »

How about this:

C-c-c-combo Breaker!
You're always ready for the other shoe to drop...
Benefit: When  you are the target of an action made as part of a Combo, if you also possess a Combo that contains the same trick then you may cause that action to fail. You may immediately take an action to use your own Combo containing that trick, targeting your attacker. You may use this ability a number of times per session equal to the number of Combos that you possess.
Special: You may take this feat more than once, choosing a different trick each time.

That's a little overspecialized, but I follow the idea. Some sort of turning the tables effect would definitely spice up the process... Hmm.
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Blankbeard
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« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2011, 12:23:08 AM »

I like this a lot.  Seems like an good way to develop a martial character.

You may want to look at spellcasting tricks.  Mix up (Any) + reaching spell lets you cast a half action spell as a free action for 1 spell point (Quick cast costs 3) or a full action spell for 1 spell point and a -5 to your checks.

Which also brings up a question:  Can you use a mix up trick (the same one) each round?  Normally you wouldn't bother, but if it's part of a combo you might want to.

Spartan-style spear and shield:  Spear Supremacy, Shield Mastery
Shield block - shield slam - shove - run through
Pole arm Mastery's topple and gut would fit in that sequence nicely.


How does this work?  Assume Flail Basics, Mastery, and this combo:
Thresher Spin, Ragged Wound, Salt the Wound

Can you use more than one combo per round?  If you can, the stance from flail basics makes it fairly easy to bet +8 or +9 on attacks and damage after a single round.  If you then have Flashing weapon, you could have +16 or more to attacks and damage on subsequent rounds, assuming a second combo without thresher spin. 
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« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2011, 02:05:06 AM »

How about this:

C-c-c-combo Breaker!
You're always ready for the other shoe to drop...
Benefit: When  you are the target of an action made as part of a Combo, if you also possess a Combo that contains the same trick then you may cause that action to fail. You may immediately take an action to use your own Combo containing that trick, targeting your attacker. You may use this ability a number of times per session equal to the number of Combos that you possess.
Special: You may take this feat more than once, choosing a different trick each time.

That's a little overspecialized, but I follow the idea. Some sort of turning the tables effect would definitely spice up the process... Hmm.

Actually, I'd just handle that with an initiative action such that a number of times per [blah] equal to your chance feats if someone targets you with a combo attempt, you can spend an AD to force them to bet a second AD to continue or else they're considered to have outright failed
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Morgenstern
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« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2011, 06:05:28 AM »

I like this a lot.  Seems like an good way to develop a martial character.

It has lots of possibilites - but also a lot of permutations which is why I want to subject it to some spirited review Smiley.

Quote
You may want to look at spellcasting tricks.  Mix up (Any) + reaching spell lets you cast a half action spell as a free action for 1 spell point (Quick cast costs 3) or a full action spell for 1 spell point and a -5 to your checks.


Combos don't supercede other limits like casting one spell per round, so as far as I can see using reaching spell in a combo looks ok to me.

Quote
Which also brings up a question:  Can you use a mix up trick (the same one) each round?  Normally you wouldn't bother, but if it's part of a combo you might want to.

My reading of mix-up is that you can use it more than once every 3 rounds, but you wouldn't get a bonus if you did. Since the challenge of combos is that you need to succeed or face the cost, and because firing off the same mix-up more often is just reseting the timer until you'd get a bonus again, I'm comfortable with that aspect of mix-up used in a combo. For the most part I expect the majority of combos to be built on tricks that can be used without a finite cap on uses per combat.

Quote
How does this work?  Assume Flail Basics, Mastery, and this combo:
Thresher Spin, Ragged Wound, Salt the Wound

That looks straitforward by itself Smiley. I like the pairing of ragged and salt the wound.

Quote
Can you use more than one combo per round?  If you can, the stance from flail basics makes it fairly easy to bet +8 or +9 on attacks and damage after a single round.  If you then have Flashing weapon, you could have +16 or more to attacks and damage on subsequent rounds, assuming a second combo without thresher spin.

I considered a once per round limitation, and then dropped it. Whirling Serpent stance is an excellent argument for returning to the more cautious position. I had forgetten there was something that counted number of attacks made in a round. I will update the original post with the once per round limitation. Thresher spin as part of a combo is a great tactic, evokes the source material of the trick beautifully, and used once in a combo, once by itself the same round seems pretty reasonable since it specifices it may be used twice per round.
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« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2011, 12:56:46 PM »

Combos don't supercede other limits like casting one spell per round, so as far as I can see using reaching spell in a combo looks ok to me.
Understood.  The only issue I wanted to bring up was that it essentially duplicates the Quick Casting trick at a lower cost in spell points.   It's slightly less flexible but rather cheap.
My reading of mix-up is that you can use it more than once every 3 rounds, but you wouldn't get a bonus if you did. Since the challenge of combos is that you need to succeed or face the cost, and because firing off the same mix-up more often is just reseting the timer until you'd get a bonus again, I'm comfortable with that aspect of mix-up used in a combo. For the most part I expect the majority of combos to be built on tricks that can be used without a finite cap on uses per combat.
Finding tricks that were unrestricted was the thing that took the longest.  Which brings up making new tricks.  Weapon specific tricks should probably have some kind of requirement.   I was thinking requiring the corresponding mastery feat.  Thoughts?
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Morgenstern
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« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2011, 02:01:11 PM »

Understood.  The only issue I wanted to bring up was that it essentially duplicates the Quick Casting trick at a lower cost in spell points.   It's slightly less flexible but rather cheap.

Aaaah! I get it now. Most likely I'll lock spellcasting tricks to a specific spell when used in a combo. That way you can use reaching spell, but its a specific reaching spell.

Quote
Finding tricks that were unrestricted was the thing that took the longest.  Which brings up making new tricks.

I've been dissassembling D&D 4.0 for a a couple months now, so I anticipate releasing a pile of new tricks, many without a limited number of uses. So far they look ok with this set up, but it has made me a lot more cautious about tricks that give a bonus to the check Smiley.

Quote
Weapon specific tricks should probably have some kind of requirement.   I was thinking requiring the corresponding mastery feat.  Thoughts?

Since the current weapon chains don't give a trick until mastery, and you have to have the trick before you can put it into a combo, that restriction already exists. Simpler/weaker tricks that only require a forte are kind of self correcting. Easier to get = less potent.
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Krensky
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« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2011, 03:56:02 PM »

Actually, I'd just handle that with an initiative action such that a number of times per [blah] equal to your chance feats if someone targets you with a combo attempt, you can spend an AD to force them to bet a second AD to continue or else they're considered to have outright failed

The issue with that is that PCs often won't get much out of it since the GM will absorb that without a second thought if he wants to use the combo. Granted no mechanic can save you from a jerk GM, but they should still give the PCs something more then just wearing down the GMs Action Dice pool.
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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2011, 05:44:27 PM »

Limit it to special characters, but grinding down the GC dice pool is a good thing
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« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2011, 05:47:10 PM »

Limit it to special characters, but grinding down the GC dice pool is a good thing

Except that it's effectively limitless. All he needs to do is find some excuse to give the players dice.

That's not the point though. I just have a hard time thinking of a concept or build that benefits from it. It's REALLY specialized. No other feat I can think of relies solely on the GM doing something.
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