The Supremacy Feats

[100Rabbits]

After looking over the feats of FantasyCraft, I've realized that the power level of characters really kicks up once you've gotten your hands on the Supremacy feats, which might counter a bit of the feel I'm going for in my own game.

For instance, in my game, one of the characters has the talent Strong and the Siege Supremacy feat. With a STR 16, there would be nothing stopping him from picking up a Heavy Cannon, and walk towards the enemy lines with it. (Except for huge amounts of enemy fire.)
It's a very cool image, but I'm not really sure if that's the level of power I'm comfortable with at Level 6.

So, is the solution to take a gentleman's agreement with the players that Supremacy feats isn't purchased until level 10, or am I missing some crucial facts here?

[Krensky]

Well, the primary thing you're missing is that he can't use a heavy cannon as a weapon, it's too big. He could use a deck cannon or harpoon cannon with the Siege supremacy stance.

As for power level, it's better to just accept Fantasy Craft for what it is.

Be thankful he has to wait until level six. You can be looking at Bow Supremacy or Fencing Supremacy at level 1.

[Psion]

The siege supremacy stance demotes stationary to heavy. That's pretty impressive. Still, it keeps its load, innacurate, and unreliable qualities. Pretty fair for a supremacy feat, I think.

Still, it's up to you whether you are comfortable with the ability of most of the supremacy feats at low levels (spycraft used to have level-related requirements.)

My campaign has survived having players with bow, fencing, and knife supremacy. It's not been a problem. In fact, it sort of helps control the pace of the game. With shank and touche' tricks, you don't get that one minion who just won't fail a damage save. For the most part, for most supremacy feats, there are other feat choices that are just as good for a given character.

[Crafty_Alex]

After looking over the feats of FantasyCraft, I've realized that the power level of characters really kicks up once you've gotten your hands on the Supremacy feats, which might counter a bit of the feel I'm going for in my own game.

For instance, in my game, one of the characters has the talent Strong and the Siege Supremacy feat. With a STR 16, there would be nothing stopping him from picking up a Heavy Cannon, and walk towards the enemy lines with it. (Except for huge amounts of enemy fire.)
It's a very cool image, but I'm not really sure if that's the level of power I'm comfortable with at Level 6.

So, is the solution to take a gentleman's agreement with the players that Supremacy feats isn't purchased until level 10, or am I missing some crucial facts here?

We used to limit Supremacy feats to level 12 in previous games (Classic Spycraft and 2.0), but we found often that was disappointing to players who wanted to have a specialist in the common level range of 3-8. Fantasy Craft's "sweet spot" - when character progression slows slightly to focus play in a range and considers characters "well-developed" - is Level 6. As Krensky notes, that's better than some characters who can climb those trees extremely fast.

That said, how the game plays at your table is absolutely up to you and your group want. Your Siege Supremacist won't be able to lug that cannon unless he's already Large (can't use weapons larger than yourself), but if you think these feats are too powerful, add a level restriction to all of them for fairness sake and you should be fine.

[100Rabbits]

Right, that makes a bit more sense, must have missed the part with weapon sizes.

Still, 900 pounds for a heavy cannon? What sort of heavy cannon is that supposed to represent? Seems a bit light to me, for a heavy cannon, that is.

[Sletchman]

Right, that makes a bit more sense, must have missed the part with weapon sizes.

Still, 900 pounds for a heavy cannon? What sort of heavy cannon is that supposed to represent? Seems a bit light to me, for a heavy cannon, that is.

I believe a 6lb cannon would clock in at around 900lb.  Not what I'd call heavy, but I'm guessing the intent was to avoid players going "oh that 42lb'er has huge damage, I'll take two of those".

[Dawnblade]

well most siege weapons even with the siege line is gonna take minimum of 2 rounds to reload assuming you have people near you for the mastery feat to kick in.  the real broke thing is

Battering ram 3d8 lethal 18–20 — AP 6, heavy, massive L/2h Hard 4 7D 100 lbs. Primitive 25s

25 silver for a 3d8 18-20 crit AP 6 weapon

[Krensky]

That you have to be Large to use.

[Nova]

Look at the costs involved for a moment, and you'll feel better.

Your level 6 cannoneer with siege supremacy?
-STR 16 for a ranged weapon. That's already a bit of a price.

-Three Feats, and Mastery is more or less required for anyone wanting to attack vehicles or fortifications even with a heavy cannon. A lowly Canoe with no upgrades needs a 10 or higher to make its save against a non-mastery direct hit from a heavy cannon, IF the cannon rolled maximum for its damage, after all. Let's be honest and call it four feats, you want Quickdraw if you plan on firing more than once a battle. Five if we have a lieutenant or followers (though those are certainly an advantage of their own).

-No advantage from the big ranged class, the Deadeye, as siege weapons are not black-powder. You get the tricks, but then the feat # for this one shot becomes impressive. I could definitely see an artillerist master class or the like though. And by see I mean PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE?  Ahem. Anyways.

-He's carrying a bloody ton of gear. Oh and it gets better. That heavy cannon? You need it Accurized and Reliable. That's +200% base cost already. Throw in Armor Piercing, Massive to take advantage of the high strength requirement already, and before superior, construction boosts and all that stuff, your cannon is a 2600 silver monstrosity weighing in at 350 pounds.

-Being shot at is in fact a possibility. His speed is halved, he cannot move and fire beyond his 5ft step, he cannot run jump or tumble, and with only 16 strength he's actually under heavy load unless he's naked and not carrying his own ammo.

The biggest threat is actually if you combine Bow Supremacy with a Mortar, or, for "snipers", the heavy cannon. but even those three hits will have come at a price of 7 feats and a very, very obvious primary target trying to set up. He can do this once, maaybe twice a fight if he does nothing else and has a lot of nearby friends.

Meanwhile a regular archer is launching 9~15 arrows every round, a soldier or martial artist is getting numerous blows of maybe half many dice that but with bonuses from his strength every single turn, a mage can toss several fireballs or other spells (since there's no way your siege engineer isn't at least level 6+ and probably more along 9; and so fireball may be possible as a level 2 spell for the mage) that do roughly as much damage, a bit less vs items but far more vs people, and doing so every round, twice on times he dualcasts.

And let's not even get started on what the enemies might be doing; standard characters still do the same sort of damage as PCs they're just not as tough!

[Krensky]

It also needs to be scaled down so the character in the original post can use it, which punches the error range up to 1-4 and cuts the damage back to 6d4.

[Nova]

Actually according to the errata a scaledown does not increase the error range.
Of course unless made reliable its still 1-3, and 6d4 is a good drop in damage vs 6d6.

Better to use a light cannon then, which will give him some mobility (very very little).
Does save him 600 silver though.

Light cannon runeknight perhaps? time to pull out the books

[Krensky]

Both the errata and the second printing say scaling down increases error range by 1.

[Nova]

My copy of the errata states
"When a weapon’s Scale decreases, its weight decreases by 50%, and its Size and damage dice each drop by 1 step (e.g. from Medium to Small and from d6 to
d4), to a minimum of d4. "

But after a new copy of the file, you are correct.

Rather crappy though; less damage AND error range?

Maybe scaled weapons should just "unreliable" with said quality gaining grades. not reliable though.

I'm sure most GMs would gladly let folks pay 600% so their throwing knives do d8 with only 1-2 error range

[aegis]

Rather crappy though; less damage AND error range?

AND 25% cheaper!