Saves vs Skill Checks

[Nova]

Saves advance rather slowly. By the time you have 22 ranks in a skill, you're unlikely to have even half that in your saves. Your stronger save might reach +12 by 20ish, but we're looking at +6 on your worst. While there's a good dual-function to the basic-combat save upgrade feats (really, all four are good, there's just so little space for feats in many characters ya know?) it still just can't keep up.

Skills grow faster than a soldier's Base Attack which grows faster than defenses which can grow faster than low-combat-focus BABs, which themselves grow faster than the saves, although the worst defense growth is roughly on par with your bad saving throws.

This is why parry/shield-block tricks have difficulty finding use. Unless going for very low defense, pure "I will soak this", you're effectively attempting an opposed roll with what may very well be half to 2/3's of the other guy's base bonus, with less total bonuses to grab, and against a roll that's already beaten something likely higher; your defense. They're pretty decent really early on though, and can be worth it just to get you to where they're finally useless.

[LordKruelos]

Loving this thread, by the way.  I always enjoy seeing how different folks engage with the rules differently in ways that totally make sense for them.

One thing that people keep bringing up is that parry/shield-block tricks have difficulty finding use -- honestly I haven't found this to be the case, maybe it's just my group, maybe we've been mostly lower level, but people seem to like the chance to essentially "Save against the big attack" once a turn -- even if they have less than a 50% chance, it's still one chance more than they had with their Defense alone.

[Psion]

One thing that people keep bringing up is that parry/shield-block tricks have difficulty finding use -- honestly I haven't found this to be the case, maybe it's just my group, maybe we've been mostly lower level, but people seem to like the chance to essentially "Save against the big attack" once a turn -- even if they have less than a 50% chance, it's still one chance more than they had with their Defense alone.

My group is going on 13th, and they still get plenty of use.

[Catodon]

In the alternate universe where people listen to biologists and I'm king of the world:

Reflex saves would model reaction speed (esp. vs unexpected events)
Atheltics would model applied strength and endurance tasks (eg. run a marathon, throw for distance, lift object)
Acrobatics would model power-to-wieght (eg. jump, climb)
Prestidigitation would model hand(paw)-eye-coordination (throw for accuracy, pick a lock)

This is not how FC does it though and I'm not king of the world 

[Bill Whitmore]

But you CAN be king of your world!

[LordKruelos]

In the alternate universe where people listen to biologists and I'm king of the world:

Reflex saves would model reaction speed (esp. vs unexpected events)
Atheltics would model applied strength and endurance tasks (eg. run a marathon, throw for distance, lift object)
Acrobatics would model power-to-wieght (eg. jump, climb)
Prestidigitation would model hand(paw)-eye-coordination (throw for accuracy, pick a lock)

This is not how FC does it though and I'm not king of the world 

I dunno, the difference between a Reflex save, Dexterity-based Skill check, and an Initiative roll (a specialized Reflex event, if you will) is not that large in the scheme of things.  I'd say conceptually it's pretty close.

If you wanted to run a minimalist version, perhaps have the players essentially all build NPCs from a certain pool of points, with PC Ability scores and sometimes instead of Competence, they roll their saves for relevant tests unless they spent points via Signature Skills.

Hell, you could have this character creation done in 10 minutes if you were lucky and play from there

[Catodon]

Your Dungeon, Your Dragon, Your Way!       

this is what sells FC to me.

But you CAN be king of your world!

[Morgenstern]

I dunno, the difference between a Reflex save, Dexterity-based Skill check, and an Initiative roll (a specialized Reflex event, if you will) is not that large in the scheme of things.  I'd say conceptually it's pretty close.

Surprise checks are kinda reflex-y, but initiative is more tactical in my head. If it had used Wis modifier insted of Dex that might be a more commonly held perspective .

[Catodon]

I dunno, the difference between a Reflex save, Dexterity-based Skill check, and an Initiative roll (a specialized Reflex event, if you will) is not that large in the scheme of things.  I'd say conceptually it's pretty close.

Surprise checks are kinda reflex-y, but initiative is more tactical in my head. If it had used Wis modifier insted of Dex that might be a more commonly held perspective .

or even ref modified initiative on first round, then wis mod after that.

[Psion]

Surprise checks are kinda reflex-y, but initiative is more tactical in my head. If it had used Wis modifier insted of Dex that might be a more commonly held perspective .

It would also go a ways towards mending my perception that wis is under-utilized.