The 'Seduction' Myth: What the French Still Don't Get About Sex

[aegis]

Ouch. Lately, I've read an awful lot of crap about what's going on with DSK being charged for rape and French people allegedly being complacent with rape and rapists and Roman Polanski and ... too much nonsense for me to relate here (besides it's not worth it).

You guys are a fine community I enjoy discussing with. So if any of you have any question or remark regarding this complex affair, which is clearly seen with a different coverage in France or in the US, don't hesitate to ask me there. I'd be happy to dissipate any misunderstanding or false information, because these have literally burst lately, including in newspapers I normally hold in high esteem like Time Magazine. 

[Mister Andersen]

I've heard one conspiracy theory that given the maid is a muslim, the accusation is revenge either against the recent French ban on various religious head coverings or payback for a certain deaad guy against one of the major institutions of the West.

I dunno, I'm having difficulty seeing anyone in his position do something so recklessly stupid where it couldn't be easily covered up.

Though I will admit when I first heard the news, Polanski's name immediately came to mind.

[ThunderMonkey]

I smell a future "Law & Order: Special Victims Unit" episode.

[Mister Andersen]

I'm surprised it hasn't already been an SVU episode.

[Krensky]

It likely has.

This doesn't particularly strike me a a French thing, it strikes me as another selfish, greedy, oligarchical neo-liberal (but I repeat myself) with too much power and testosterone thing. See the Ensign sex scandal for more of the same.

The French thing is a red herring.

[Antilles]

According to a newspaper I read recently, the french do have a more relaxed attitude about adultery, to the point where having a good looking mistress is almost seen as a badge of respect in some parts. It doesn't excuse abusive behavior, of course, but I could see how coming from a background like that combined with the good old power rush could lead someone to act that way.

Of course, if one were in a conspiratorial sort of mind, the timing is almost perfect, given that most thought he'd announce his candidacy for president later this summer and he was apparently more popular than the current president...

[aegis]

According to a newspaper I read recently, the french do have a more relaxed attitude about adultery, to the point where having a good looking mistress is almost seen as a badge of respect in some parts. It doesn't excuse abusive behavior, of course, but I could see how coming from a background like that combined with the good old power rush could lead someone to act that way.

That.    This is the exact kind of stuff I've been reading lately in American newspapers. Trust me, dear gentlemen and ladies, this is unfounded and nonsense. The arguments developed by the journalists, when they are, are three centuries old or completely out of their context, and the self-appointed experts on the matter are simply French journalists or free thinkers craving for public interest. I'm not the kind of person who refuses to accept a fact, I would even say that I am more often than not the critic about my own country, but what you read is pure and simple invention.

We have not a relaxed attitude about adultery.

Having a mistress is seen as a badge of being an ASS.

Like in all things, there are exceptions, but it seems like the newspapers are focusing more on exceptions than on the general rule lately.

[MilitiaJim]

We have not a relaxed attitude about adultery.

Having a mistress is seen as a badge of being an ASS.

Between this and taking the lead on kicking Ghadaffi's ass, I may need to reconsider France.  Good on y'all.

(The difference between Civil Code and Common Law is a different discussion entirely.)

[Antilles]

Really? I've always thought it was true... guess it's somewhat of a stereotype, but you gotta admit from the outside in it's one that looks plausible. We often hear about powerful french men's mistresses, but the news seldom comes off as 'oh noes he has a mistress' type news but more 'tsk tsk he's been spending government money on his mistress, that's just poor etiquette' type news. Lots of other things too, like Francois Mitterand's wife, mistress and both legitimate and illegitimate children standing together at his funeral and no one seeminly batting an eye at it, the whole concept of 'le cinq a sept' (did I spell that right?), etc etc.

I'm not saying that all french sleep around, but you certainly come off as, shall we say, having a more open mind to such matters than most every other western country. And it's not like it's necessarily a bad thing, that. But if it's just the actions of a few I apologize for spreading the misconception.

[aegis]

Really? I've always thought it was true... guess it's somewhat of a stereotype, but you gotta admit from the outside in it's one that looks plausible.

Well, it really is an outside thing then. I have many friends coming from abroad and I never heard such things, although I admit I do read similar things in the (mostly American) media from time to time. I really don't know how they come up with it.

There is one thing that is true, at least, it's that we have an astonishing number of old assholes with "walking hands" that often end up on women's butt. Since our legislation on sexual harassment is not as tight is the US's, this much might be shocking. And should. And maybe we will do something about it sometimes. But it's first and foremost a question of generation. These old grumps are all retired by now, except for those ... who do politics!

We often hear about powerful french men's mistresses, but the news seldom comes off as 'oh noes he has a mistress' type news but more 'tsk tsk he's been spending government money on his mistress, that's just poor etiquette' type news.

Wow, two things there.

First, when someone has a mistress, it's not seen as a good thing. However, we generally judge separately personal life/virtue and public action. When a public figure like Mitterand, since you name him, do great things as a President but has a poor personal life, we can both love him for his politics and scowl at him for his personal behavior. But if he runs for presidency again, well we'll first and foremost look at his political results, not his private life. And I believe I'm not mistaken when I say it goes completely otherwise in the US, right?

Second, if someone spends government's money for sex, he's in very serious trouble. I mean, he was until Sarkozy became President. This little guy buys his way out of everything - or rather his friends do. That's also one of the reasons why we are so afraid that DSK - our best shot against him in 2012! - would be found guilty. But he should rot in jail if he is, don't get me wrong. I just hope not.

Lots of other things too, like Francois Mitterand's wife, mistress and both legitimate and illegitimate children standing together at his funeral and no one seeminly batting an eye at it

That's because we've been knowing this for quite time then. And there were only his illegitimate children, not their mother(s). You can't really blame them.

, the whole concept of 'le cinq a sept' (did I spell that right?), etc etc.

That's so funny. The number of completely outdated expressions I keep reading this day. I have not a single idea of what a "cinq a sept" is. This is just ... too old for me to even have ever heard of it!

I'm not saying that all french sleep around, but you certainly come off as, shall we say, having a more open mind to such matters than most every other western country. And it's not like it's necessarily a bad thing, that. But if it's just the actions of a few I apologize for spreading the misconception.

It is, but don't apologize. I was kind of expecting that, and this is why I posted this thread in the first place.    The fault goes first to the few that are sleeping around to much, second maybe to the French society - who contrary to what many people think is quite shy regarding sex and so is cautious when dealing with touchy business -, and third to the American newspapers for relaying clueless informations. In the article whose title I've used here, the author pretends that "seduction" is an ambiguous word in French. Well it's not, she has no source to back this up, but she says it anyway, out of the blue, in the first line of her article. That's got to be a little bit shocking, doesn't it?

[Number Three]

Come on, Aegis.  Next thing you know, you'll be telling us you really don't send your ten-year-olds to school with wine in their lunchbox. 

[Krensky]

Come on, Aegis.  Next thing you know, you'll be telling us you really don't send your ten-year-olds to school with wine in their lunchbox. 

And that you're nt wearing a striped shirt, red kercheif and berret.

[Crafty_Pat]

Really? I've always thought it was true... guess it's somewhat of a stereotype, but you gotta admit from the outside in it's one that looks plausible.

Well, it really is an outside thing then. I have many friends coming from abroad and I never heard such things, although I admit I do read similar things in the (mostly American) media from time to time. I really don't know how they come up with it.

With respect to folks on both sides of the pond, I do. The United States, for all the examples of its open-minded progressiveness over the last couple hundred years, is still a puritanical state at heart (and by that I mean at the heart of the country - attitudes in your region may vary - they certainly do in mine). With values as staunchly conservative at the core as ours. it's exceedingly easy for Americans to get up in arms not only about practices and attitudes that differ from ours but also about perceived oversights (like not judging your officials for their private lives, as we so often do). It's arrogant and self-righteous, but hey, that appears to be what's required to become a super power.

[glimmerrat]

The US - the land where its ok to show a dead, mutilated hooker on tv... just as long as you can't see her nipples.

I have no idea where I read that, but the English speaking world does seem to have a double standard regarding sex and violence.

[aegis]

Yes, this is something of a difference. Seeing naked people in French movies is quite common, and it doesn't mean it's porn, even soft. It's just ... part of the movie. You may know dozen of fan service scenes in Hollywood movies where you see all the woman's body, except her nipples or genitals. That's not an issue in France. Violence, on the other hand, is much more.

So yes, to answer Number Three and Kresnky, we do have quite an open view about sex (I just really don't know what 'cinq a sept' is, and we don't use 'trousser' for decades!). It's part of our everyday lives and we're not really ashamed by it, at least a part of our society isn't. But keep also in mind that we're historically a catholic country. Until about a century, the Roman Church ruled hand in hand with the government (and with our Dwarven President, it seems we're going backward on the "separation of State and Church" matter). So not surprisingly, even if catholicism is slowly fading, there is still a significant part of our society for whom sex is bad, should remain a private matter, and should definitely not be spoken of in the media!

We're not all out of the same mold.