Pummel Question

[EmptyOwl]

A character in my campaign has the Master's Art feat with 18 WIS.  Does he do 3d4+24 subdual with a pummel, 3d3+24 subdual, or some other amount because we are doing it wrong?

How does armor effect that damage?  x3 or just once?  That +24 add is whacky.

Assuming he has 13 STR/13DEX and gets Fatigue I, is he unable to use the feat chain as per pg84?

-Thanks

[Nova]

Page 206 (well, at least in the older printing) has the answer:

Multipliers include the rolled damage and flat bonuses (such as strength, magic weapon, etc). Variable bonuses are added after the multiplication.

So the character should be doing (1d4+8)*3, though I'm also in the habit of multiplying the dice throw instead of its result as well, most folks I know like it better that way too, but by RAW its as the equation above. Armor, as it is a single hit, applies only once. This unfortunately does make subdual or stress a lot better in mid-late game than lethal in many cases (the exception being things immune to it), but both players and NPCs can protect themselves. Its still a full action that needs to hit, after all.

If currently impaired below the feat's prerequisites, he does lose its benefits until he recovers enough to qualify again. However, if the feat was gained without prerequisites (a first level martial artist gets Martial Arts no matter what), that'll stay active. Since martial arts remains, master's art remains.

If this were a soldier, however....

[Mister Andersen]

I'm not sure that temporary ability damage counts as losing feat prerequisites.

[Nova]

I base it off page 84's

If a character loses one or more prerequisites for a feat — due to attribute penalties, for example — he keeps the feat but may not benefit from it or use its abilities until he regains all of its prerequisites.

All related scores change immediately, except Vitality, Wounds, Skill Points and Lifestyle are only affected if its permanent. I take that to mean feats get affected.

Would be nice to have a more clear-cut answer, perhaps from Pat or Alex?

[Mister Andersen]

One of the primary design philosophies for Master Craft was to minimise paperwork and recalculation, which is why when your Int mod goes up, you retroactively gain the extra skill point per level. By that logic, having to keep track of the effects of temp attrib damage on ability prereqs etc seems an added layer of complexity that would best be eschewed.

[Bill Whitmore]

Not sure how much more clear-cut it needs to be:

Pg 9, Impairments: When a change is permanent, all of your affected scores change accordingly. The same is true of temporary changes, except for vitality, wounds, skill points, known spells, and Lifestyle, which are only affected by permanent attribute changes.

Neither Feats nor Prerequisites are listed as exemptions.

Pg 89, Prerequisites: If a character loses one or more prerequisites for a feat —  due to attribute penalties, for example — he keeps the feat but  may not benefit from it or use its abilities until he regains all of  its prerequisites.

It's pretty clear, and even explicitly called out with regards to attribute penalties, that you lose any benefits from the feat if you lose the prerequisites for any reason.

[Crafty_Pat]

Not sure how much more clear-cut it needs to be:

Pg 9, Impairments: When a change is permanent, all of your affected scores change accordingly. The same is true of temporary changes, except for vitality, wounds, skill points, known spells, and Lifestyle, which are only affected by permanent attribute changes.

Neither Feats nor Prerequisites are listed as exemptions.

Pg 89, Prerequisites: If a character loses one or more prerequisites for a feat —  due to attribute penalties, for example — he keeps the feat but  may not benefit from it or use its abilities until he regains all of  its prerequisites.

It's pretty clear, and even explicitly called out with regards to attribute penalties, that you lose any benefits from the feat if you lose the prerequisites for any reason.

That's correct.

[boomerang]

That's really cool and I'm glad things are that way.  Something of a drawback which could make one think twice about really gaming certain feats like Martial Arts (outside of the Martial Artist class, which can overcome this issue as it does with the ability pre-reqs in the first place), and losing the ability to pull off some abilities with ability damage is tactically interesting and fearsome (i.e., interesting). 

[Nova]

Its still an excellent feat chain.  A good choice for "noncombattant" classes (that term doesn't apply all that much in this game compared to others) that don't have all that many feats to spare. Sure it can be disabled, but so can your charging supremacy and other things.

Its a good set of bonuses that makes it cheap to "catch up" to moderate combat capabilities without really being something you can overpower with without fully dedicating yourself to unarmed (at which point you deserve it like anyone else).