Venomous & poison upgrades

[EmptyOwl]

Adding the Venomous upgrade to a natural attack allows you to use a poison from the table on pg 166, but what would the cost be to add upgrades to the poison?

Would this be better modeled using some extraordinary attack instead?

I am trying to convert a monster from the PAthfinder adventure Souls for Smuggle's Shiv and the creature's poison does 1 dex/rd for 4 rds (save each round).  Can I buy venomous 4 times and stack the effects sequencially? 

Perhaps slowed or sickened would be better model the actual effect but there doesn't seem to be a way to do this using the RAW.

Thanks!

[Mister Andersen]

Yeah, much simpler to just use an extraordinary attack and the 'supernatural attack' upgrade to link it to something like gore or bite

[LordKruelos]

[Deliberate thread necromancy]

Follow-up question here about the timing of poison from an attack

Say for example, a certain wyvern with a tail stinger

Tail Slap II (dmg 1d10+2 lethal + paralyzing poison; threat 19–20; upgrades: reach +1, venomous)

My understanding is:
Attack hits, damage gets through DR, target fails poison DC
[1 Incubation period passes] - here 1 minute
Then Paralyzed for [1 Incubation Period]

Then, per p.216

"Thereafter, and at the end of each subsequent Incubation
Period, he makes a Fortitude save (DC 12). With success, he
fights the contagion off entirely; otherwise, he suffers the listed
effects."

So a DC 12 Fort save or you suffer another 10 rounds of paralysis.

Am I reading this correctly?

[Crafty_Alex]

Then, per p.216

"Thereafter, and at the end of each subsequent Incubation
Period, he makes a Fortitude save (DC 12). With success, he
fights the contagion off entirely; otherwise, he suffers the listed
effects."

So a DC 12 Fort save or you suffer another 10 rounds of paralysis.

Am I reading this correctly?

Yep!

[mhd]

I am trying to convert a monster from the PAthfinder adventure Souls for Smuggle's Shiv and the creature's poison does 1 dex/rd for 4 rds (save each round).  Can I buy venomous 4 times and stack the effects sequencially?

I'd like to note that the four rounds thing is just Pathfinder's way of treating the incubation period. They changed this from the "1 save right now, one after a minute" mechanic of 3E, as people kinda forgot that they were poisoned and didn't ever make the second saving throw. Thus instead of dealing out "lots" of damage once (or twice), you've got a little damage but over several rounds. (In earlier editions, you poison would probably do 1d4/1d4 Con dmg)

FantasyCraft is a bit closer to 3E, so I wouldn't try to emulate the "damage over time" effect of the poison, and simply convert it to a normal venom with a 1 minute incubation time. As this can happen more than just twice, I'd reduce the effect. In your case, I'd just declare it a "fast-acting disorienting poison" and proceed according to the poison table. Still, this would only make it take its first effect after 1 minute, so you might need something faster.

I don't know if the incubation periods in the Poison table are mostly there for flavor or for balance (not enough experience with FC yet), so either disregard the period and make the incubation time 1 round or make it a fast-acting slowing poison.

By the way, now I've got two questions myself:

• Is it possible to double-stack poison modifiers, i.e. have "fast-acting II" to go from 1 hour to one round
• How do poison upgrades modify the XP value of the NPC?

[Nova]

 Poison upgrades increase the value of the poison dose, This affects its xp value as gear directly, at least as long as its "vials of" or the like. Natural poisons are bought in chapter 6, and are a better bargin for naturally poisonous creatures in terms of xp.

 As usual its important to note that the xp system can be very easy to bloat ineffectively, or to be used in a murderously efficient manner. Go with what feels about right, but double-check yourself and feel free to give extra value for an ability that's particularly powerful (such as rend). A single dose of expensive poison may best be a gas or concentrated enough that you can go Kefka on an entire water-supply, otherwise you'll be in trouble if it misses or is saved against!

As far as I know an upgrade cannot be applied once. Fast-acting I already turns something like a drop of mercury into a quick-acting Intelligence-sink. There IS somewhat of a problem there, though, as DC12 makes for very expensive 50% chances of failing a save once (and probably not a second, almost certainly not a third time). If you want it even faster, there's Venom-Master, an attack trick, for the application.

Best you can do is combine black vial, virulent poisons and a *Paladin*, for a DC23 save that MAY be penalized enough to offer a decent chance. Otherwise its only good for mooks past the lowest threat levels, when used by PCs. Which is too bad, because their incubation times and power all suggest great fun to be had with people that probably get the terminal bonus on their saves...

[Dhampire]

Have you thought about giving the monster Tricky with Venom Master?

That would bring your initial duration down.