Mass Craft PDF

[foproy]

As for the Hydra/Cobra thing... best guess is to explain why you can carry two or more cobras but only can have one hydra at a time and can't save it for later. Which I find slightly annoying, but not as annoying as the fact that the fucking banshee always charges just as I launch a cobra at the bitch.

Shoot the ground - the missile can go through her legs too (which makes me rage a little on higher difficulties when you have 3 banshee's and manage to kill a single husk with a missile).

Doesn't help much when she's on the other side of the zone from where she was when the missile launched. Of course I've adjusted to considering the Ravagers and Brutes that show up at the same time (or even swarm of husks) to be higher priority targets in late waves. Heck, I get ganked by Ravagers and Marauders for more often then Banshees.

The Banshee is such an amazing psychological weapon.  You really gotta give Bioware props for that - heaps of really good gamers just lose their cool and go nuts when she warps in and starts screaming.  They'll leave cover and just stand there fully autoing her without regard for other enemies.  But she's not a real threat - I don't think a Banshee has ever actually killed me when I wasn't a vanguard who charged into her autokill move (and even then it was the lag that killed me - I vanguard solo them with ease normally).

Ravagers - now they kill me all the time.  But they're slow and fairly quiet until they kill you, so no one freaks out like they do with the Banshee - and the acid and swarmers the Ravagers drop on death kill plenty of players too.

I think that needs to go into the tabletop game - something like a Resolve check based on her screaming (with a big AoE) that effectively forces you to go full retard.  Not sure how to mechanics it (Taunt + Aggro maybe?), but it takes a fair bit of player experience to get to the stage that you realise she's not a big threat - her real threat is that she takes your attention.


@Mr A: I've always kind of thought that Engineer and Adept should be classes.  Not necessarily the other ones.  Mostly because:
Vanguard = Adept + Martial Artist/Soldier
Infiltrator = Engineer + Burglar/Intruder/Soldier (depending on focus)
Sentinel = Adept + Engineer

It was far more clear in ME1 where that was quite literally the case with the hybrid classes.  ME2/3 added specialised powers for them, but in a big way they are still an Adept/Soldier or an Engineer/Soldier/Sniper.

the ravagers i find easy to deal with with a liberal aplication of overload. esspecially with the chain lightning effect on the extraneous bolts zap the swarmers and they are never a problem for any of my engineer. the banshee is best fought with biotics. using one person to solo against it while the rest of the team keeps the other critters off of them. once again overload works well here. i like the vangaurd v banshee match because the vanguard has mobility.

[Mister Andersen]

New game/setting, new collection of appropriate base classes instead of trying to build additional things onto the pre-existing array.

So, A. Sort of.

You'd either start off with  back-to-basics generics (with customisable core ability like the advanced training/bonus skill for 2nd playthru) from which you take the Adept/Sentinel/Engineer/Infiltrator/Soldier/Vanguard ExC or else you have those six classes as your base classes, with ExCs that expand on some part of those 6 core ideas.

[tfwfh]

Just my two cents here, but having Vanguard, Solider, Sentinel, etc as the base classes would probably be a lot more attractive to new players who just want to play a Mass Effect RPG.

Also, this just occurred to me.  "Mass Craft: Write your own ending."

[Krensky]

Yeah... can we keep the foolishness of the whining about the ending out of it?

[MilitiaJim]

"Mass Craft: Write your own ending."

Mass Craft:  Their ending is your beginning.

(Anyone want some cheese to go with their whine?  Not that I've finished yet.)

[glimmerrat]

New game/setting, new collection of appropriate base classes instead of trying to build additional things onto the pre-existing array.

I need a *throws in the towel* emote.

[Sletchman]

I'd really like to keep the cancer that is whining about the ending away from this thread.  It rears it's ugly head in every topic on every other forum I visit that is even tangentially related to Mass Effect - often with surprise spoilers*.

Sorry if that comes across as an attack on you tfwfh - I just (as in literally just then) had (yet another) part of ME3 that I haven't played spoiled (without warning) for me in a thread about which power evolutions an Asari Adept should take for Gold difficulty (ie. nothing to do with singleplayer, at all).  So I'm a little enraged at the whole "take back mass effect" thing...

_{* I'm thinking have them very clear like Spoilers=ME2 - Dossier: The Professor (Early game) or Spoilers=ME3 - Priority: Rannoch (Midgame).  Not everyone who can contribute to this has necessarily finished even ME1 or ME2 (they could have played only 3 and decided to pick up the earlier games - it happens), so any plot related examples for mechanics should be kept out of the main post.  Lets not make assumptions here.}

New game/setting, new collection of appropriate base classes instead of trying to build additional things onto the pre-existing array.

So, A. Sort of.

You'd either start off with  back-to-basics generics (with customisable core ability like the advanced training/bonus skill for 2nd playthru) from which you take the Adept/Sentinel/Engineer/Infiltrator/Soldier/Vanguard ExC or else you have those six classes as your base classes, with ExCs that expand on some part of those 6 core ideas.

I can see what you're getting at, and by and large I think it has potential to work.  I've got some stuff in a notepad I'll try organse and post once I get back from doing my groceries.  One thing I wouldn't do is have the advanced training based on core ability - it seems weak for a core ability to have an adept gain Energy Drain (a somewhat standard Tech power) and vice versa.  I think having an in-place mechanic for cross training is a good thing (especially given in 2/3 you can do at a console on your ship - no new game plus required).

New game/setting, new collection of appropriate base classes instead of trying to build additional things onto the pre-existing array.

I need a *throws in the towel* emote.

C'mon bro.  Don't be like that.  There's certainly merit in connecting powers to base classes - for one it provides a simple structure for newer players to the system.  I shared the pdf with someone and they just didn't get how they got access to powers, how many, and which ones they could get (and ended up finally declaring the Asari as flat out "OP").  So having it mimic the mage/priest as a caster would remove that hesitation and fit in with the standards set by other mastercraft products.  For two - it doesn't mean you can't have alternate access options (Blessed, but with Biotics for naturally biotic species / fringe concepts).

------

A part of me likes the idea of having 2 classes - Biotic and Tech Specialist (crappy names, I know) and keeping the in game classes as specialists.  That way players who fit the "vanguard archtype" can play a Drell Vanguard Biotic [X].  It also constrains higher level / more powerful abilities / evolutions to people with larger investment - which means they can be considerably more powerful then they are as it exists (because you know they can only get them at level X - not level 1 or 2).

There's also merit in 4/5 classes (all in game minus Soldier) - you can make them specific and powerful within their own sphere of influence, as well as very distinct.  The questions are just: Is there's enough meat for 6 classes?  And, Will they be able to stand next to the existing classes without overshadowing them?  I'm not sure what the answer is - my gut says go with 2 classes and mix and match with existing for variance (A Biotic Burglar would produce someone like Thane - considerably different to a Biotic Soldier who could well be Wrex or Samara).  The 2 Classes makes it easier for weirder combinations - Miranda becomes a Tech/Biotic/Captain (she clearly displays Battle Plans with her boosting team mate abilities talent as well as her tech and biotic abilities).  So there is that advantage.  The downside is that it would make most biotics similar, and most tech users similiar (but is that a problem?  The future is mass produced after all, so similar omni-tool specialists and biotic training makes a degree of sense).


This has been another overly wordy diatribe, proudly bought to you by TheSletchman.  He'll be back with more after he gets his weekly groceries (about 4 hours or so - farmers markets first for some actually fresh produce) - that is if anyone is interested in more of my ramblings.

[tfwfh]

My bad.  I didn't mean to irritate anybody.

TBH, I don't like mass effect all that much.  I haven't played 3, and I'm not sure that I care to.  My interest in Mass Craft is as a supplement to spy/master craft, and as a fan made product.  Both of those things interest me greatly.

So, apologies for bringing up a sensitive subject.  From now on I'll say no more about it.

[Krensky]

This isn't to cast aspesions on anything already reproduced, or a comment on the value of it or the value of redoing anything.

In other words, step back from the edge Glim and put the baton down.

It's more as a theoretic musing, completely divorced from what is already done. I think there's some value to this because at the moment Mass Effect is a settled commodity so we have the opportunity to pick and choose.

If I was to write a Mass Effect game based on Master Craft from the ground up:

Talents would continue to function as normal. Asari, Drell, Krogan, Salarian, Quarrion, Turian, Human, Batarian, etc. While Bioware did a good job making their races more then humans with bumpy heads, they're not much more in the major races. Volus are possible, but they don't seem inclined to 'adventuring', and the Hanar and Elcor are a little too different. Just my opinion though. Vorca, I suppose because there's always someone...

(click to show/hide)

Geth of both the collective and awakened varieties are also possible. I'd probably cover the Thorian hybrids as a species feat. I'm strongly inclined to not do Protheans to keep Javik the special little snowflake/semi-asshole that he is.

Specialties would cover all the passive ability lines. Alliance Officer, Turian Renegade, C-Spec Investigator, Quarian Machinist, Pure Biotic, Justicar, etc. Now, this is a slight departure but this is mostly a discussion of principles. I'm confident all of the examples in the games could be sufficiently adjusted and genericized to allow them to function the way they do now.

Classes would be, for transparency to the video games, the six in the game. Adept, Engineer, Infiltrator, Sentinel, Soldier, Vanguard. This would make things easy on people coming from the video games and play to the strengths of a class based system in allowing clear delineations of role. The classes would need to all allow a certain amount of talky though. Adding in classes equivalent to the Keeper or Courtier would be good, but the primary experience would focus on military and paramilitary characters since that's the primary focus of the franchise.

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Depending on what happens next month some of this can change

At the moment, I consider the post ME3 galaxy uninteresting in replicating as a RPG since the lack of relays would change stuff to the point it wouldn't feel like ME as a milieu. That said, you could probably best represent the synergy ending via the high point buy campaign quality. The destroy and control endings don't really need any additional rules.

[LordKruelos]

MASS CRAFT 2.0

All suggested edits added, along with a cool new look. Many thanks go to Aegis for the hard work on the formatting.

Hey can someone send me this file not from that site?

[Sletchman]

Hey can someone send me this file not from that site?

If it's the same PDF as I have - PM me your email and I'll send it to you.  That's an open invitation to anyone who wants it.

Now, down to business...

First, a disclaimer: I think the current PDF is excellent - Glim did a fantastic job on the writing.  Truly excellent.  What follows is just what I would do if we were starting today, with nothing in front of us (based on the just the 3 games and purely for MasterCraft).

So here we go:
More and more I think classes are the way to do this.  I also think that the key isn't 5 new classes (leaving Soldier as is) - at least not 5 new base classes.

(click to show/hide)

Here's a breakdown of powers by class, to (hopefully) support the point I'm going to make.

Adept: Warp, Throw, Shockwave, Singularity, Pull, Lift¹
Vanguard: Charge, Nova²
Engineer: Incinerate, Overload, Cryo Blast, Combat Drone, Sabotage³, Sentry Turret²
Infiltrator: Cloak
Sentinel: Tech Armour

Not directly available to Shepard
Biotics: Stasis⁴, Reave, Barrier, Dominate, Slam, Dark Channel
Tech: Energy Drain, Neural Shock⁴, Geth Sheild Boost/Defence Matrix, Decoy.
Note: Tali has a defensive variant of Combat Drone - not sure if it's worth it's own power note.

Combat Powers (Non-Tech and Non-Biotic): Carnage, Concussive Shot, Grenades/Mines, Marksman, Adrenalin Rush.
Note: I've left out Ammo powers intentionally at this stage.

1: Defunt post-ME1.
2: New in ME3.
3: Previously two seperate powers: AI Hacking (ME1+2) + Sabotage (in ME1).
4: Unavailable to Shepard post ME1.

Looking at this breakdown, and the fact that an Infiltrator is just an Engineer with a cloak and a little more fight, it seems to me that the best way to do things is to make Engineer and Adept base classes and Infiltrator, Vanguard and Sentinel into Expert Classes.  That way their unique abilities can be given to them as well as a slowed advancement of their respective power types (both for the Sentinel) along with enhanced combat abilities.  Spectre would still make a great Masterclass and the system would still allow multiclassing as well as players who want to be a class that isn't one of the "main 6" - so Courtiers still work (The Consort...) as well as Burglars (Kasumi) and other stuff players will come up with.

Power progression for the base classes would be on the lines of Priest / Mage - 1/3/5...  Expert classes would have slightly slowed progression but have more specialised abilities based on their archtype and in game power set.  Natural Biotics/Savants can still easily exist via a (species/gear respectively?) feat that gives basic usage - think "Blessed" but for Tech/Biotics.

I agree entirely with Krensky about Talents / Specialties.  I just think that having a base class for Infiltrator (an engineer with Cloak) makes them a little redundant and not have enough character to properly stand on their own - especially given the (ideally) portable nature of MasterCraft.  If Biotics are handled properly anyone on these forums can bolt them right into a Fantasy game with no issues - so everything has to be distinct and flavourful.  To me, "Hybrid classes" always seemed the province of Expert / Master Classes anyway (Mist Dancer = mage/thief, Rune Knight = fighter/mage, Paladin = priest/captain, Vanguard = soldier/adept, Infiltrator = soldier/engineer).

My bad.  I didn't mean to irritate anybody.

TBH, I don't like mass effect all that much.  I haven't played 3, and I'm not sure that I care to.  My interest in Mass Craft is as a supplement to spy/master craft, and as a fan made product.  Both of those things interest me greatly.

So, apologies for bringing up a sensitive subject.  From now on I'll say no more about it.

Sorry to lash out a little man - it's just one of those things that bugs me (and other guys using it as an excuse for spoilers certainly didn't help - totally not your fault though).  I hope you contribute to the idea of a MC setting colaboration.  Someone who isn't a big fan will both keep us honest, and look at each option as something that can bolt in / out for other genres (I know I will likely use an Biotics as an alternate psionics-esque "magic" source in a Fantasy game).

[tfwfh]

You have crushed my budding forum-self-confidence.  I will now go back to lurking for a year.

No, I kid.   Like I said, I don't actually care that much, but I know other people do.  I thought it could provide enticement for newcomers to give the system/hobby a try.  I hadn't considered that there might be people who are frustrated by what amounts to entitled whining by some segment of the fans.

Anyway, I'm still interested in the project for its own sake.  I'll pop in if I have anything to say.

[glimmerrat]

C'mon bro.  Don't be like that.  There's certainly merit in connecting powers to base classes - for one it provides a simple structure for newer players to the system.

See, the problem there is that to do that, I have to delete most specialties and dozens of feats. That represents days of work wasted, with more to go to write between 3 and 6 twenty-level base classes.

It *does* provide a simple structure, which I wish had been pushed 2 years ago. Now it just invalidates a whole lot of work, and backs me into a corner.

FYI, I ain't even mad, just tired. Sorry f this comes off as cranky. 

[Mister Andersen]

First, a disclaimer: I think the current PDF is excellent - Glim did a fantastic job on the writing.  Truly excellent.  What follows is just what I would do if we were starting today, with nothing in front of us (based on the just the 3 games and purely for MasterCraft).

This.

(click to show/hide)

Here's a breakdown of powers by class, to (hopefully) support the point I'm going to make.

Adept: Warp, Throw, Shockwave, Singularity, Pull, Lift¹
Vanguard: Charge, Nova²
Engineer: Incinerate, Overload, Cryo Blast, Combat Drone, Sabotage³, Sentry Turret²
Infiltrator: Cloak
Sentinel: Tech Armour

Not directly available to Shepard
Biotics: Stasis⁴, Reave, Barrier, Dominate, Slam, Dark Channel
Tech: Energy Drain, Neural Shock⁴, Geth Sheild Boost/Defence Matrix, Decoy.
Note: Tali has a defensive variant of Combat Drone - not sure if it's worth it's own power note.

Combat Powers (Non-Tech and Non-Biotic): Carnage, Concussive Shot, Grenades/Mines, Marksman, Adrenalin Rush.
Note: I've left out Ammo powers intentionally at this stage.

1: Defunt post-ME1.
2: New in ME3.
3: Previously two seperate powers: AI Hacking (ME1+2) + Sabotage (in ME1).
4: Unavailable to Shepard post ME1.

So here we go:
More and more I think classes are the way to do this.  I also think that the key isn't 5 new classes (leaving Soldier as is) - at least not 5 new base classes.

Looking at this breakdown, and the fact that an Infiltrator is just an Engineer with a cloak and a little more fight, it seems to me that the best way to do things is to make Engineer and Adept base classes and Infiltrator, Vanguard and Sentinel into Expert Classes.  

No, that's a terribly counter productive idea. The only acceptable option here is absolute parity: making the 6 ME options all identically structured base classes, or all expert classes coming off Back-to-Basics.

You can't have an analog ME adaption that so blatantly fails to replicate the digital experience. Anyone who plays Vanguard or Infiltrator is going to take one look at that and rightly say "Screw you hippy!" before heading back to their computer if they can't play their chosen class -- though perhaps more it might be more accurate to say its signature abilities -- from the from the same starting position as every other player.

The problem is you have a flawed starting position. It's not the single player Shep experience you need, which even a cursory look through Coalesced.ini will tell you is inherently biased, but the multiplayer mechanics that have to serve as the stepping off point.

That way their unique abilities can be given to them as well as a slowed advancement of their respective power types (both for the Sentinel) along with enhanced combat abilities.  Spectre would still make a great Masterclass and the system would still allow multiclassing as well as players who want to be a class that isn't one of the "main 6" - so Courtiers still work (The Consort...) as well as Burglars (Kasumi) and other stuff players will come up with.

To me, this argues more and more for the back-to-basics 6 + ExC as needed.

Power progression for the base classes would be on the lines of Priest / Mage - 1/3/5...  Expert classes would have slightly slowed progression but have more specialised abilities based on their archtype and in game power set.  Natural Biotics/Savants can still easily exist via a (species/gear respectively?) feat that gives basic usage - think "Blessed" but for Tech/Biotics.

See, I'd handle abilities via power points, and as chains that require a particular trick/proficiency to access. The more power points you have, which would refresh every number of rounds equal to the menace level, effectively the quicker your cool down rate.

[Sletchman]

C'mon bro.  Don't be like that.  There's certainly merit in connecting powers to base classes - for one it provides a simple structure for newer players to the system.

See, the problem there is that to do that, I have to delete most specialties and dozens of feats. That represents days of work wasted, with more to go to write between 3 and 6 twenty-level base classes.

I wouldn't say wasted - heaps of the existing work provides a damn good foundation to start from when it comes time to put rules on paper, as well as things we can learn from.  A little frustrating and tiring?  Sure.  But by no means a waste.

The other thing that I think benefits a class+power interlinking in a big way (that I didn't think of mentioning before) is scalability.  All the existing powers (in the PDF) are pretty static, but over the course of the video game a players Warp or Incinerate will more then double in power.  Having it tied to a class means it will stay more balanced (and represent points invested in those vs passives like fitness if you multiclass out).

Furthermore, the more I think about it the more I think the Specialties should remain (conceptually - mechanics will need a tweak of varying size).  With 2 generic Back to Basics style classes (Tech User and Biotic) combined with a Vanguard or Sentinel Specialty you can easily and quickly make any of the base classes in the single or multiplayer game while also avoiding having several very bland classes that are "just like [CLASS] but with 1 small difference".

It *does* provide a simple structure, which I wish had been pushed 2 years ago. Now it just invalidates a whole lot of work, and backs me into a corner.

I was thinking about it back when this thred started, but didn't think it was worth trying to push my opinion onto others.  Live and learn, right?

----
@Mr A: I disagree on many of your points.  I've listed my reasons I'm against 6 base classes above (in this post), and I really disagree that you need 6 to replicate the digital experience - in fact the whole point of generic classes is that one covers several conceptual options by having modular abilities.  Your plan and tools almost seem counter to each other in purpose to me, at this stage.  Your argument about Vanguard / Infiltrator players being unhappy without individual classes is also flawed - I play both fairly extensively (I've finished ME1+2 on insanity with both as well as promoting both multiple times on MP).

As I've mentioned in other threads where you've suggested the mechanic - I think that basing any player options off Menace is entirely a bad idea.  It simply doesn't happen anywhere else in the system, and for good reason.  It takes a tool that exists for the GM and forces it on the player while only serving to add an unnecessary level of complexity and bookkeeping (not to mention the unforunate metagaming implications of everyone knowing exactly how hard your current mission will be before you start the game).

If you really think it's the best idea then I'm more then happy to see actual examples of how you'd structure it - I'm a big enough man to admit I'm wrong when proven so.  I just think that in so many ways that's the wrong direction to go.

EDITS: Tidied up some spelling/gramatical errors.