[Brainstorm] Effect based magic systems and spell acquisition?

[Mister Andersen]

Your rokugan way presumably still works just like FC with fixed spell lists sorted into schools?

[Sletchman]

Your rokugan way presumably still works just like FC with fixed spell lists sorted into schools?

I'm really not sure what you mean.

For something like Rokugan, I'd want to divide all allowable effects (Lost Magic should still be a thing) amongst Earth, Water, Fire, Wind and Void (for Godai) or Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, Water (for Gogyo).  Instead of Correspondence, Entropy, Force, Life, Mind, Matter, Prime, Spirit, Time (I assume Fate got folded into Time sometimes since I last played Mage?).

Same with other but similar settings - for something like the world of Avatar, a (reasonably straight forward) character like Kitara would need an huge array of spheres if they were ordered that way, rather then being a Master of Water.  Same thing for the 7 Chakra's, really (just different dividing lines).  I just can't get my head around what you mean in regards to the fixed spell list sorted into schools?

[Mister Andersen]

FC, like all d20, has predetermined spells sorted by level and school. Using Mage's spheres would not work like that, but just like in the original game

[Sletchman]

Gotta say dude, I have no idea what you're saying in those last two posts at all.

Also, without some cost mechanic, it'd be obscene how powerful these characters would be - especially the ones who focused in a maxing a single sphere ASAP.

[Mister Andersen]

• How do you cast spells in Fantasy Craft? Answer: By having Circle of Power equal or greater than the level of the spell,knowing the spell you want to cast before hand (ie, you can't just pull it from nowhere, it has to be in your spellbook), and expending spll points equal to the level of the spell. You also require a single "mage's pouch" as appropriate to your concept.
• How do you accumuate spells in Fantasy Craft? Answer: You get a number equal to your wisdom + spell casting ranks. That number has to last you your entire career and cover all 10 levels, and you only get to revise this list if you're lucky and have a GM who will let you.
• How are spells presented in Fantasy Craft? Answer: there's a whole chapter of the things, with a new book of 'em due any year now. They are sorted by level (0 - 9) and school (necromancy, word, etc etc). Everything about them is predetermined -- range, duration, effect, etc etc etc.

What you're describing with regards to the colour or classical elements just sounds like reskinning and redistributing the current schools to suit the fluff of the setting.
 
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• How do you cast spells in Mage? Answer: By having the appropriate spheres (you can turn a torch into a laser with Force, but to create a fireball out of thin air, you need Force + Prime) at the appropriate rating. You also need a focus (mage pouch, essentially) for every sphere (which depending on concept might result in up to 9 different foci). Quintessence can be spent to make the task easier but isn't required.
• How do you accumulate spells in Mage: Answer: You don't, you make it up as you go along and figure out  what access to different sphere levels let you do. How many effects you can figure out is up to you.
• How are spells presented in Mage? They're not, per se. Rather, the system gives you rotes that are examples of what is achieveable when using X spheres at Y rating. Within those hard limits, anything you want is potentially achievable if you rack up enough successes (multiple dice target number resolution systems however have a tendency to suck hard)

Mage, as with pretty much all point-buy systems, presents a roughly linearly increasing cost to advancement: Cost X to establish, then Cost Y multiplied by the existing value to increase it to the next rank. In some cases, there's also a governer in the form of "Stat A cannot exceed the value of Stat B" which in the case of Mage means that your Sphere ratings can never exceed your Arete.

The simplest options for translating that to Fantasy Craft is limiting the maximum sphere cap to either (a) the attribute modifier of your casting skill (which has the potential of leading to horribly min-maxed characters), or (b) my current preference which is starting AD - 1. This not only gives a steady rate of maximum power increase but also allows for the Traditions/Conventions to have dedicated organisational talents that sets the max sphere rating for their signature sphere to starting AD to mirror the ability to start with a sphere at 3 in the original game. Alternatively, you introduce a "Path of Arete" using something similar to Scott's Mark of [Blah] toolkit of grabing a step every time a level based feat comes up, but that doesn't interact well with campaigns that use fast or slow feats.

However, Arete in Mage is somthing of a bitch to actually acquire after you've Awakened (ie, gone through chargen) and effectively requires the completion of a Fantasy Craft Quest subplot in order to be allowed to spend the XP to buy the next dot. You could go the Crusader route and build something like Called to Arms into caster classes, but that's ugly and unpredictable as a mandatory mechanic when spell points fulfil much of the same limiting function (and leaves it up to the GM to decide if she wants to use subplots to suit the nature of magic in her game: she might decide you have to complete a plot before you can even learn a new sphere)

Instead of buying individual spells with Casting Attribute + skill ranks, you buy individual sphere ratings -- so a 1st level mage with Int 14 and spellcasting 4 could know

• • Life 1 - 5
  • Prime 1 - 5
  • Entropy 1-2
  • Force 1-2
  • Time 1
  • Matter 1-3

but would generally only be able to cast 2nd tier effects with all of them until level 6

[Sletchman]

What you're describing with regards to the colour or classical elements just sounds like reskinning and redistributing the current schools to suit the fluff of the setting.

Ah.  Clearly there's been a communication / interpretation error, since that's not what I mean at all.

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Regarding the rest.  A first level character with 2nd tier effects.  2 out of a maximum 5 (by any logical extrapolation that is the same as a Mage (or Seer or...) starting with 4th level spells and getting 6th level spells at Career Level 6.

So unless they are extraordinarily weak effects at tiers 1 and 2 (which ultimately raises the question of why separate them at all if that's the case), said character will be a disgusting powerhouse that overshadows his contemporaries.  More powerful and more flexible then any caster or other character type.  So it straight up fails at my first design goal.  It also artificially inflates the value of origins with +1 Starting Action dice (by an extreme degree).  So maximum based off Starting AD just doesn't work.


EDIT: Also, you might want to rethink the tone you've chosen to use.  Posting like you're educating a developmentally challenged child because I didn't follow your "hilariously aloof" single line posts (with no actual reference to my posts) is categorically not the way to convince me you have a valid point.  It is, however, a great way to get me to completely ignore you.

[Mister Andersen]

I'm not sure how else to progress in the face of someone I know to be an avid d20 fan professing an inability to understand the statement "FC, like all d20, has predetermined spells sorted by level and school." Returning to first principles just seemed the surest way to ensure everyone's on the same level because very clearly we were at cross purposes.

Effects-based magic systems (ie, ones where you are given parameters to act otherwise freeformly within, so a damaging spell damages something with the how and why being largely incidental) are I think generally incompatable with ones that work off lists of predetermined spells (where a fireball is a fireball and changing damage type so it's an acid ball is an entirely different spell quite possibly of a different level), and trying to reconcile them disadvantages both.

In Mage, 1st tier effects are sensory. So Correspondence 1 would give you the same result as the 0-level Orient Self, while Entropy 1 -- on it's own as written, but I'd require a conjunctional sphere such as Life or Matter -- boosts damage (probably threat range in FC) by letting you know where an enemy's weak spots are or basically works as Detect Lies, with Force 1 granting effectively blindsight with enough successes, Life 1 as easily boosts medicine and notice threat ranges as it does mimix a spell like status, Matter 1 detects secret doors as easily as poison, and so on.

On that same scale, you can't actually directly affect other people until tier 3, so Verbena and Convention X and their posited sphere boost aside, that means no magical heal effects until career level 6 -- by which point assuming that Origins aren't handing out additional magic skill foci a player has at most 3 out a maximum of 7 foci slots filled (assuming they're acquired purely by rank) or 3 out of a max of 9 (assuming they're granted purely by A+C ability slots and you're restricting magical advancement entirely to casting classes).

If you want to slow down acquisition of sphere tiers, drop the casting attribute from the number of available slots.

Given that origins that increase starting action dice are (a) rare as hens teeth, (b) price that particular benefit rther expensively, and (c) are available entirely at the GM's discretion, your concern there is largely groundless

[MikeS]

What you're describing with regards to the colour or classical elements just sounds like reskinning and redistributing the current schools to suit the fluff of the setting.

Ah.  Clearly there's been a communication / interpretation error, since that's not what I mean at all.

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Regarding the rest.  A first level character with 2nd tier effects.  2 out of a maximum 5 (by any logical extrapolation that is the same as a Mage (or Seer or...) starting with 4th level spells and getting 6th level spells at Career Level 6.

So unless they are extraordinarily weak effects at tiers 1 and 2 (which ultimately raises the question of why separate them at all if that's the case), said character will be a disgusting powerhouse that overshadows his contemporaries.  More powerful and more flexible then any caster or other character type.  So it straight up fails at my first design goal.  It also artificially inflates the value of origins with +1 Starting Action dice (by an extreme degree).  So maximum based off Starting AD just doesn't work.


EDIT: Also, you might want to rethink the tone you've chosen to use.  Posting like you're educating a developmentally challenged child because I didn't follow your "hilariously aloof" single line posts (with no actual reference to my posts) is categorically not the way to convince me you have a valid point.  It is, however, a great way to get me to completely ignore you.

You might want to check out the new Mage instead (the Awakening): power levels scale much better, and effects are better defined (no more changing gas to metal with a starting character). Rotes work differently and are worth taking.

But it does bear mention that a starting Mage is a lot more powerful than a first level FC character. If working with a Mage-like system, I'd probably give the character 1-2 dots for level 1, and then a dot every level thereafter, and limit by level how many dots he can have in one sphere. 5 dots should be around level 18, your dot maximum would increase at levels 5, 9, 13, 18.

The other way you could use dots is to inform you what the effect types are that can be invoked, but you can still assign spell levels to the effect to determine DC and spell cost. Use existing spells to benchmark this level, or maybe assign a slight penalty to DC or spell points to make the effect-caster pay for his flexibility.

[ludomastro]

My biggest concern with effects based magic is also its biggest appeal.  The sheer flexibility makes it hard to balance.  Further, it has the annoying habit of bogging down play unless the guy playing the mage is very well versed in the system.  Hence the appeal of rote magics and (in d20 at least) fixed spell lists.

If you can get your hands on a copy of the Dresden Files RPG (Evil Hat Productions) you might be able to glean some info from that system.  Being FATE based, it's pretty rules light when compared to FC but the approach seems sound.

Decide how much of a block the magic is supposed to be and then that becomes the DC for the mage.  If he doesn't gather all the power in one roll, the spell fizzles. If he can't control all the power in one roll, the spell still can go off but ends up doing collateral damage.

Hacked example
Wall of fire with a 18 DC to exploit would be an 18 DC to create in the first place.

Meh, it's late and I'm tired so I have no idea if I'm making sense.  I'll look at this again in the morning.

[Sletchman]

You might want to check out the new Mage instead (the Awakening): power levels scale much better, and effects are better defined (no more changing gas to metal with a starting character). Rotes work differently and are worth taking.

Actually Mage: the Awakening is the only Mage I've played.  I've heard some of the other editions had some balance issues, but Awakening is good fun.  The only drama we had was when someone wanted to play a non-Mage, who ended up being underpowered (and kinda dull by comparison).

The other way you could use dots is to inform you what the effect types are that can be invoked

This is pretty similar to what I'm leaning towards at the moment.

If you can get your hands on a copy of the Dresden Files RPG (Evil Hat Productions) you might be able to glean some info from that system.  Being FATE based, it's pretty rules light when compared to FC but the approach seems sound.

We actually play DFRPG weekly (though it's gonna be fortnightly with me running a new FC game on the opposite week) and I will admit that it's a small part of the reason I wanted to put together a system like this.

Decide how much of a block the magic is supposed to be and then that becomes the DC for the mage.  If he doesn't gather all the power in one roll, the spell fizzles. If he can't control all the power in one roll, the spell still can go off but ends up doing collateral damage.

Interesting idea, and certainly worth a ponder.

[Mister Andersen]

You might want to check out the new Mage instead (the Awakening): power levels scale much better, and effects are better defined (no more changing gas to metal with a starting character). Rotes work differently and are worth taking.

Actually Mage: the Awakening is the only Mage I've played.  I've heard some of the other editions had some balance issues, but Awakening is good fun.  The only drama we had was when someone wanted to play a non-Mage, who ended up being underpowered (and kinda dull by comparison).

That's always been something of a problem, not just with White Wof but most settings where you have a clearly superior sub section of the game world running around alongside mundanes. An option might be to give everyone other than the mage extra action dice -- where as the mage can actively change reality to suit their whims, lesser folk just have this tendency for reality to go their way.

[Sletchman]

That's actually (kinda) the solution in DFRPG - Pure Mortal characters get +2 Refresh (which gives you extra starting fate dice) to make up for having no supernatural tomfoolery.

[Morgenstern]

I think in most cases mundanes' biggest power is the don't have ninjas bust in on them every other chapter . ...Or have a new book worth of plot flung at them them once a quarter.

Or put another way, mundanes get a LOT more downtime.

[Sletchman]

Or put another way, mundanes get a LOT more downtime.

That's actually kinda fascinating.  I mean, I obviously recognised the concept has existed in all the literature I want my games to support, but I've never seen it laid out in game terms.  There's a campaign quality in there...

Studious Magic (Sorcery sub-quality, Permanent): During downtime, any character who possesses Spells Known must dedicate a portion of their downtime on study and skill upkeep.  As a result, any downtime the group is given is reduced by 1 grade for Spellcasters.  Example: The group gets 1 Month of downtime, the party Trickster counts this as 1 Week of downtime, as the bulk of his spare time is spent in study.


I'm sure the language can be tidied up in terms of determining who is affected by the reduction (Mage and co, Effects guy, but not Priest).  Maybe anyone possessing a class that requires the Sorcery quality?

[Morgenstern]

That's actually kinda fascinating.  I mean, I obviously recognised the concept has existed in all the literature I want my games to support, but I've never seen it laid out in game terms.

Probably because most RPGs don't treat "...and then nothing happens..." as a resource.

I like your campaign quality concept. Going the other way you could also have...

GEAR FEATS
  The Quiet Life
  Peace and tranquility, that's the life for me.
  Benefit: When you have downtime, the number of days are considered to be doubled (i.e. you may accomplish 40 days of activity in a 20 day downtime). If you have any character options that have the Sorcery campaign quaity as a prerequisite, you instead gain +3 Prudence.