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Author Topic: Semi OT: 4th Ed Race Designs: Elves  (Read 8428 times)
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« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2007, 04:49:22 PM »

Hey semi-related since we are talking about innovation and WoW, take a look at this article talking about MMO design considerations in a post-WoW world.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=15386

Now after reading that think about how wizards is trying to take some of that mentality to the tabletop format. Also note wizards has been somewhat behind the curve for offering a digital venue of its game compared to many other smaller companies in the industry.

Interesting stuff huh?
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« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2007, 05:04:45 PM »

Indeed!
Point #2, the bit about tech specs, that's very very true. I'm really looking forward to WHOnline and Conan, but I'm also expecting to blow $300 on a ton of top line RAM as well.

Point #3 is hyper salient as well. Part of WoW's appeal is the ton of little detail, like persistent voice acting and widely varying terrain. It is kind of cartoony, but it's identity is STRONG. Nothing homogenous about it, nothing speaks much to it's roots. Ties in well to point 12 too.

Actually it's all good. ^^

Anyway, thanks for posting this. Smiley
It's all very informative and worthy of discussion. A+.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 05:08:40 PM by Valentina » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2007, 05:24:06 PM »

The very interesting thing about WoW, is that one of the reasons they got so horribly popular with >everybody< when MMO's were joke games, Evercrack was the whipping boy of "traditional" gamers, and people were still iffy about subscription based gameplay, was that they had a built in audience, with Starcraft, Warcraft 3, and Diablo 2, who they blasted with advertisements, and who would play there games long after the expiration date passed (diablo 2 and starcraft being the guilty parties), and they took the top guilds from the Grandpappy EQ, to play in the Beta, who then told all the EQ folks that "this game is the main event."

So WoW created a game that plays like an FPS out of the box, yet has enough lore and quests and story to keep the "hardcore" role players happy, has PvP that doesn't suck as bad ad Ultima Online, in terms of penalties.  Is easy to get into, and has various money sinking plans to get you started, yeah they took over, and nothing at all in the pipes will steal the crown.

The article hit the nail on the head in a lot of what Blizzard did right, they didn't target the hard core raiders exclusively, they didn't cater to the vocal minority.  They managed to show the hardcore gamers a game that was well done (except for the first 3 months or so at launch with the overwhelming popularity killed servers) and those hardcore gamers told there friends, "hey you have to play this, it rocks" and gave away guest passes basically, suddenly Blizzard is giving away crack, and now 8 or 9 million people are supposedly playing.

If WotC can capture the genie and sell it in a convenient offline format, taking the three most important factors of WoW offline, 1) ease of play, 2) depth of play and 3) familiarity, they will get the increase Hasbro wants out of there book line.
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« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2007, 12:08:21 AM »

It's still amusing hearing yuppies talking to each other about the previous night's WoW session on the bus.
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« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2007, 01:25:09 AM »

...they had a built in audience, with Starcraft, Warcraft 3, and Diablo 2...

The games that make me cringe the most are not the really crappy games.  I play those for a few minutes, kick them to the curb and never think of them again.

The games that make me cringe the most are those games which are ALMOST good.  These are games where a few more tweaks, maybe slightly better usability, or even just that extra layer to tie the whole game together, would really make it fun to play.

I hate playing those games, seeing the untapped potential there and knowing I will never see it realized, that someone just HAD to have the game out by the end of the quarter so it never got the polish it deserved.

[nostalgia]
But, Blizzard has been very good at adding these final touches to their games.  Diablo 2 has (not had, but has) some of the best options for characters in a computer game, that I have ever played.  A plethora of classes and abilities has brought me and my friends back to it several times (and as recently as early this year).

Starcraft was an awesome game.  No other game has, to date, brought together so distinctly different races and yet balance them against each other so smoothly.  Most games of the time (or even today) used identical units with slight variations to account for racial differences.

Ah, good times.
[/nostalgia]

I had played EQ and was fairly unimpressed.  I played SWG with similar thoughts.  Two misses by Sony on the MMO front makes me wary to try anything more they have to offer.

I played Starcraft and Diablo 2, so when WoW came out I knew I had to try it, and they didn't disappoint.
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« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2007, 02:02:46 AM »

Quote
You speak as if copying WoW is a bad thing?
I'm against all sorts of copying.
Everything in D&D is either copied, derived or adapted from another source. Read the Wikipedia page. They haven't had an original thought since adding roleplaying to the miniatures rules...and the jury is still out on that one.

Quote
Look at Shadowrun, and then show me another game that allows you to play a Troll with four arms holding an assault cannon and watching a ball game at the same time.
Look at L5R, and then show me a game where I can play a ratling courtier or a blonde samurai-ko wearing a bikini-yoroi.
Rifts. Get a grip. Anime'd up Japanese court scenes and a Rahuman-ripoff hardly pass as original either. Funny, though. I love SR and L5R, and I can't really stand Rifts. What makes those games isn't originality, it's just packaging. Bikini-yoroi? Makes it kinda hard to keep it in your pants, I suppose? ^_^

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I'm a choosy person, I prefer to spend my money on things that are creative and interesting. Not on things that are like cheap knockoffs of someone's ideas.
Again...D&D in any edition is full of "cheap knockoffs". This honestly shouldn't be new information for anybody. It doesn't make it less fun to play. Eberron is the biggest knock-off ever by virtue of having to contain everything found in 3.5, which as I may already have mentioned is totally derived from other sources. But Eberron is fun, and combines the familiar in a package that is very palatable if not the least bit original.
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« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2007, 05:42:24 AM »

Quote
Everything in D&D is either copied, derived or adapted from another source. Read the Wikipedia page. They haven't had an original thought since adding roleplaying to the miniatures rules...and the jury is still out on that one.
First, wikipedia is not a valid source of information since I can change everything that stands there.
Second, from where did TSR copy AL-QADIM, Spelljammer, Planescape and Forgotten Realms?
And Tolkien doesn't count since he's the foundation of modern fantasy and every fantasy system uses at least one of his creations.

Quote
Anime'd up Japanese court scenes and a Rahuman-ripoff hardly pass as original either.
Well if it isn't anything original then you sir, are blasé beyond my comprehension.

Quote
Again...D&D in any edition is full of "cheap knockoffs".
Yes I agree, the Mind Flayer was copied from...wait it wasn't copied it was created for D&D just like several hundred other monsters, quite a few worlds that have interesting backgrounds like the mystic Vistani from Ravenloft or voodoo elves from Eberron, and a lot of other little tidbits that weren't there until someone from TSR or WotC made them.
Sorry but I have a rather large library of D&D books and can't agree with you because from my standpoint you're wrong.

« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 08:27:28 AM by Aragathor » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2007, 09:14:38 AM »

So Neko, are you saying that 1st Edition AD&D stole from other games?
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« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2007, 04:21:50 PM »

Second, from where did TSR copy AL-QADIM, Spelljammer, Planescape and Forgotten Realms?

Spelljammer, as original as it may sound, is really just the old concept of Crystal Spheres (see http://faculty.knox.edu/fmcandre/cosmology.html or http://brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/museum/esim.asp?c=204001) with the vacuum substituted for Phlogiston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlogiston). Spelljammer is original as compared to other gaming environments, but is based on lots of old concepts and also several novels.

I'm not saying this all as a counter to your overall argument, just that there really is a lot of influence in just about any gaming system by the other gaming systems and non-gaming ideas that are out there. In this day and age, originality may be valid in terms of construction (how did you put pieces together).

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« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2007, 04:28:46 PM »

Quote
Spelljammer is original as compared to other gaming environments, but is based on lots of old concepts and also several novels.
Nice, I learn something new everyday.

Quote
I'm not saying this all as a counter to your overall argument,
I know and I'm not against being corrected.

Quote
In this day and age, originality may be valid in terms of construction (how did you put pieces together).
True, looking at some old settings for D&D you can clearly see basic concepts and influences from outside, with the exception of "Wooly Rupert" the Tyranohamstersaurus of Ill Omen.
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« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2007, 04:29:28 PM »

There's certainly something to be said for the old saw "there's nothing new under the sun".  Ultimately, everything's been thought of before, by *someone*.  It's the reassembly of pieces we all recognize that keeps us role-playing, going to the movies, and so forth, I reckon.
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« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2007, 05:03:34 PM »

Don't forget execution.  Poorly executed originality is only interesting critically or as an indication of promise and future potential.  Well executed banality is usually entertaining and moving far in excess of it's artistic or critical value.  Independence Day, or Spider Man for instance.  (Spidey was original when Stan Lee created him, but forty years later, not so much.)
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« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2007, 02:54:25 AM »

So Neko, are you saying that 1st Edition AD&D stole from other games?
Yes...it stole from Chainmail. Tongue But seriously, Dungeons and Dragons has the advantage of being the first published PNP RPG, and I noted that with:
 "They haven't had an original thought since adding roleplaying to the miniatures rules...and the jury is still out on that one."  The last part of that is to note the point about being the first published as opposed to simply the first. There are an absolute ton of wargamers who claim to have done similar things as far back as the 50's for their own edification, but never had anything go to print.  Difficult point to prove or disprove, really, and not entirely on topic anyway.

Initially, D&D ripped off the fantasy literature of the day for a lot of its most basic conventions. Alignment, class structure, demihumans and an assortment of monsters all spring from an assortment of popular fiction and ancient myth. At first, there wasn't a lot of competition as far as RPGs went, but as time went on, D&D did begin to borrow from games around it, even as it was borrowed from in turn.

If you really think about it, it's kinda difficult to see where WotC could be ripping off Blizzard: WoW is kind of a D&D rip off at its core.

Oh...and while I'm on repeating myself, I said "Everything in D&D is either copied, derived or adapted from another source". That's apparently a bit complicated, so let me break it down.

AL-QADIM- Yeah...good example. Thanks. Ever hear of Sir Richard Burton? We'll stamp that one derived, which is probably noted somewhere in the work.

The Mind Flayer- Oh...look eveybody. It's a brain sucking alien inspired by a host of crappy old sci-fi movies and pulp adventure comics. Again, clearly derivative when taken in context from the flayers first appearance.

Standard D&D Settings- largely derivative of Tolkien, Lewis, Burroughs, Howard or Lovecraft. Ocasionally simply copied outright.

Mea culpa on the use of the absolute, however. Almost everything, I suppose I should have said. I have no clue where they got the flumph, really. ^_^
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