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Author Topic: Semi OT: 4th Ed Race Designs: Elves  (Read 9078 times)
ThunderMonkey
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« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2007, 10:37:00 AM »

Elves (Rangers) = Night Elves
Eladrin (Wizards) = Blood Elves, though my BE Hunter kicks ass.
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« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2007, 11:09:35 AM »

You speak as if copying WoW is a bad thing?

There are like 7 MILLION WoW players. If they can harness, oh, say 1/2 of 1% of that audience, they will double their sales straight out of the gate. To ignore what is a very reachable goal with 4e would be flat-out stupid.

D&D has always been derivative, but WotC has come to realize that this generation's fantasy fans have been defined by video games such as WoW rather than the literature of Tolkein and Pratchett and even D&D itself. They are adjusting the game at all levels to appeal to this new group of gamers raised on Final Fantasy and Warcraft and Harry Potter and the new LotR movies because that's how D&D has always done things...and they will only benefit from it.
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« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2007, 11:18:57 AM »

It is unfortunate we have to fight against their lack of originality in order to succeed. ... On the upside, most of the gamers in our monthly RPGA meeting are excited about FantasyCraft and Wyrmstone. I'll pimping it as much as possible (don't think I'll be wearing a purple felt hat though).
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« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2007, 11:26:18 AM »

Well I'm not going to judge it poorly yet because we have yet to see how these differen't "flavors" of elf are done. DnD has always had subraces and folks always want to personalize their elf, nor does any one person agree on what their elf should be.

If they can give enough tools for DMs and players to make the elf race they want or have that elf race be what they want then this is a good thing.

If race can be something more than just bonus stats and/or feats then I say cool it will give some much needed identity to some characters.

I'm also curious to see how FantasyCraft will tackle this as well, need to check out that Signs and Portents article.
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« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2007, 11:29:30 AM »

Quote
You speak as if copying WoW is a bad thing?
I'm against all sorts of copying.
Look at Shadowrun, and then show me another game that allows you to play a Troll with four arms holding an assault cannon and watching a ball game at the same time.
Look at L5R, and then show me a game where I can play a ratling courtier or a blonde samurai-ko wearing a bikini-yoroi.


I'm a choosy person, I prefer to spend my money on things that are creative and interesting. Not on things that are like cheap knockoffs of someone's ideas.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 11:32:53 AM by Aragathor » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2007, 11:30:23 AM »

The S&P article is crunchy stuff! ... It had everyone excited and asking me for the dwarf.
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« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2007, 11:30:49 AM »

If race can be something more than just bonus stats and/or feats then I say cool it will give some much needed identity to some characters.

I'm also curious to see how FantasyCraft will tackle this as well, need to check out that Signs and Portents article.

Better still pick up Origin of the Species: Light of the Olympus. The races are very flexible and the 'legendary' master classes provide a lot of racial style and prowess.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 11:42:06 AM by meadicus » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2007, 12:38:37 PM »

I don't think is copying, but more along the lines of mimicking. Taking what works and jumping ahead with your ideas as well.
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« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2007, 01:35:10 PM »

Not an optimistic sign. The WoW D20 adoption was pretty weak mechanically

You mean the original WoW D&D or the WoW RPG?

If the later, I really, intensely disagree. They did some fantastic things with the system. Basically, they gathered up a bunch of the innovations from Arcana Evolved and moved them back in a D&D like direction.

However, I am NOT at all jazzed by the idea of nerfing the eladrin and (rumor has it) the drow and making them into PC races just so it can be more like WoW.

The likelihood of me adopting 4e is slowly fading.
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« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2007, 01:39:11 PM »

Quote
You speak as if copying WoW is a bad thing?
I'm against all sorts of copying.
Look at Shadowrun, and then show me another game that allows you to play a Troll with four arms holding an assault cannon and watching a ball game at the same time.
Look at L5R, and then show me a game where I can play a ratling courtier or a blonde samurai-ko wearing a bikini-yoroi.


I'm a choosy person, I prefer to spend my money on things that are creative and interesting. Not on things that are like cheap knockoffs of someone's ideas.

But what if the "copying" is done well or even better, hypothetically?
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« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2007, 01:44:42 PM »

The idea of racial classes that allow you to play a LA without the LA have been around since at least 3.5 - hell, Dragon had an issue years back that had racial classes for all the lycanthropes.
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« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2007, 02:09:12 PM »

The generic fluff of these guys is almost entirely inconsequential to me. It'll most likely be superseded by the specific campaign world I'm gaming in anyway. The core books are about one thing and one thing only to me...mechanics and art (ok, that's two). Make me see/feel how these guys are going to do their thing. Provide examples to spark the imagination and then show me how the mechanics help to foster a style.

I'm not going to lie, unless something horrid happens, I'm picking up the core of 4D, but FantasyCraft is definitely higher on the anticipation list for me. At least there, I'm pretty sure my elf/dwarf/centaur can really rock out with his etc... D&D will most likely always have it's place though so I'm pretty sure I'll at least stay current as there's bound to be some good in 4D and maybe even some really innovative stuff.
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Crafty_Alex
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« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2007, 04:23:27 PM »

Quote
You speak as if copying WoW is a bad thing?
I'm against all sorts of copying.
Look at Shadowrun, and then show me another game that allows you to play a Troll with four arms holding an assault cannon and watching a ball game at the same time.
Look at L5R, and then show me a game where I can play a ratling courtier or a blonde samurai-ko wearing a bikini-yoroi.

I'm a choosy person, I prefer to spend my money on things that are creative and interesting. Not on things that are like cheap knockoffs of someone's ideas.


But what if the "copying" is done well or even better, hypothetically?


This is a funny time for this to come up. I just started a blog post I've been thinking about for a week about "killing my inner artist." There's two ways you can go with a game - you can make one for entertainment, or one for art. Generally, entertainment games are the ones that get played. Shadowrun, for instance, was original perhaps in combining DnD and Cyberpunk, BUT the game was still a combination of DnD and Cyberpunk! Games like Nobilis are art...thus they are lesser games.

DnD has always been a game made to sell well and appeal to a pop culture "understanding" of fantasy. 4e, at least, what I'm seeing of it, is the first time that it has really had to adjust, thanks to the groundswell in the last 10 or so years of fantasy's popularity and the changes that came with it. Mike Mearls, who it seems is instrumental in the new vision, is also a guy who embraces d20's open nature and is not afraid to use things he sees as good in his games. He's professed love for 2.0 in other forums, and he'd certainly be stupid not to at least learn from what we've done here in making the best DnD he can make. So the addition of WoW, both to the fluff and to the crunch, to DnD4e is IMO a good move when looking at it as a commercial enterprise in a hobby with an ostensibly shrinking fanbase. If 4e really succeeds, it's going to be good for everybody.  
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Alex Flagg
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« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2007, 04:26:06 PM »

You speak as if copying WoW is a bad thing?

There are like 7 MILLION WoW players. If they can harness, oh, say 1/2 of 1% of that audience, they will double their sales straight out of the gate. To ignore what is a very reachable goal with 4e would be flat-out stupid.

D&D has always been derivative, but WotC has come to realize that this generation's fantasy fans have been defined by video games such as WoW rather than the literature of Tolkein and Pratchett and even D&D itself. They are adjusting the game at all levels to appeal to this new group of gamers raised on Final Fantasy and Warcraft and Harry Potter and the new LotR movies because that's how D&D has always done things...and they will only benefit from it.

Interesting note:
I talked to a contact, good term as any really, who's a bit of a #1 pick in server architecture and when we came across that specific part of discussing MMO's he mentioned that the 9 Million is actually Active Characters, not individual paying accounts. Given that there are ~200 server partitions, or realms, which each host 8 characters odds are good there aren't actually more then 400,000 actual accounts.
As in all things only Blizz knows for sure. There is a lot to be said for being at least perceived as the All Dominating Lord of Online Gaming, nothing like strength of brand after all.

Or maybe he's blowing smoke. =]
From what I know I expect not, but why believe me? ^^

And that's a good analysis. This isn't the Tolkien Generation any more. The Warhammer MMO is being haunted by a constant stink about the almost total absence of women from it's fantasy setting. Games Workshop's kowtowed slightly with the Adeptas Soritas and the odd jungle fighter, but so far there's a single important female NPC between 40K and Fantasy so I suppose they're a little behind as well.

Psion: I am. I sat, I read, I was underwhelmed. Nothing said GET THIS, most just said "meh, no wonder we're in the 1/2 off bin."
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« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2007, 04:48:52 PM »

Elves (Rangers) = Night Elves
Eladrin (Wizards) = Blood Elves, though my BE Hunter kicks ass.

Yup yup. I do wish BE had Warrior as a choice, class closest to my heart, but apparently you can't do it all. =]
I also really love the general Blood Elf culture and tone. Desperate, driven, narcissistic, and deadly addicted -a culture torn between living in fairy denial and bitterly holding the line against extinction.
Plus, they're like psycho-yuppy heroin addicts and I can't help but roffle at that. Their racial mount should be an S-Series BMW with a dusty hand mirror. =D
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