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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2011, 07:57:19 PM »

Ah, no. Good catch.
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Valentina
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« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2011, 07:59:35 PM »

Ah, no. Good catch.

Drat. Wink

And I'd help with your Paths request, but I don't have the requisite reference materials just yet.
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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2011, 05:46:46 AM »

Updated the feat.

This Is Sparta! [style feat]
There are consequences for imposing on you.
     Prerequisites: Will save bonus 3+
     Benefit: When you are targeted by an unsuccessful Influence or Intimidate check, including a Threat action, you gain 1 Edge. You may spend 2 Edge to target anyone who has made such a failed check against you during the current scene and inflict stress damage equal to your Appearance modifier (minimum 1).
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« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2011, 03:12:37 AM »

Would adding the ability to cast Wit to Bulwark be too much?
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Morgenstern
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« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2011, 03:17:27 AM »

Would adding the ability to cast Wit to Bulwark be too much?

It doesn't seem unreasonable, but it's slightly out of theme.
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« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2011, 03:24:02 AM »

The thought came to me while working in the Trinity conversion that with that tweak this class would be a good way to handle the Superiors from the Asia sourcebook
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« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2011, 11:28:07 AM »

Alright, having been tweaked and renamed, I'd say that short of any final commentary, this one is ready for the FCDB
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« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2013, 02:34:48 PM »

Updated the feat.

This Is Sparta! [style feat]
There are consequences for imposing on you.
     Prerequisites: Will save bonus 3+
     Benefit: When you are targeted by an unsuccessful Influence or Intimidate check, including a Threaten action, you gain 1 Edge. You may spend 2 Edge to target anyone who has made any such check against you during the current scene and inflict stress damage equal to your Appearance modifier (minimum 1).

So I've been thinking that given the class's Spell points aren't tapped by an ability until Level 4 I could stand to drop the current core ability and replace it with something along the lines of:

Gorgo's Grace: You gain the This Is Sparta! feat. Additionally, you may utilise Spell Points to fuel Edge-based character options.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 06:24:24 PM by Mister Andersen » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2013, 05:55:34 PM »

I like the feat, but I'm suspicious that an unrestricted "you may spend Spell Point as Edge" is enough to be the entire core ability by itself. Possibly more than enough...

(This points to one of the things I was enjoying in creating a whole palette of base classes for New Pie: being able to set up a dozen core abilities at the same time so as to set some visible ground rules for what is a reasonable level of effectiveness form a core ability.)
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« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2013, 06:31:24 PM »

The problem with making it the core ability on its own is that there's nothing else Edge for it to interact with
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« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2013, 07:04:24 PM »

Alrighty, this class has undergone some changes, with a lot heavier use of Edge. The original core ability Unstoppable Force (AD boost to Strength-based checks give Refresh action benefit equal to the result) has been replaced by Gorgo's Grace.

This Is Sparta! in its original form was somewhat weak, so it's been beefed up (with some additional prerequisites) partially so it fits better with the core ability.

Wuxia has been excised in favour of a thematic continuation of drop zone, which included moving the change in damage type inflicted by falling to level 8

Perhaps the biggest change is the removal of spell points and replacing it with a similarly priced Edge pool to power Bulwark
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 07:07:23 PM by Mister Andersen » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2013, 11:09:28 PM »

Alrighty, this class has undergone some changes, with a lot heavier use of Edge. The original core ability Unstoppable Force (AD boost to Strength-based checks give Refresh action benefit equal to the result) has been replaced by Gorgo's Grace.
I like to see edge used more. Bravo!

This Is Sparta! in its original form was somewhat weak, so it's been beefed up (with some additional prerequisites) partially so it fits better with the core ability.

THIS IS SPARTA!
There are consequences for imposing on you.
Prerequisites: Will save bonus 3+, Appearance 1+, Intimidate 4+ ranks, Resolve 4+ ranks
Benefit: When you are targeted by an unsuccessful check or attack utilizing the Impress or Intimidate skills, you gain 1 Edge. As a full action you may MISSING WORD HERE an individual who has made any such check against you during the current scene and inflict a number of grades of shaken up to your Appearance modifier at a cost of 1 Edge + 1 per grade inflicted. Characters normally immune to the condition may be affected at a cost of 1 action dice + 1 per grade inflicted.
This isn't Spycraft 2.0. Why crazy prereqs? That's not the Mastercraft style. What is the single (or at most two) most important prereq? Dump the others. Text is also much more complicated than it needs to be. An attack check is still a check, so you can drop that text.

When you are targeted by an unsuccessful check or attack utilizing the Impress or Intimidate skills, you gain 1 Edge.
becomes:
When you are targeted by an unsuccessful Impress or Intimidate check you gain 1 Edge.
if you really got a mad-on for attack being in there, it's still:
When you are targeted by an unsuccessful Impress or Intimidate check or attack you gain 1 Edge.

As far as the rest of it, it seems to say that you can appearance whammy anybody who hit you with Impress or Intimidate, whether they succeeded or failed. Correct? Or am I reading it wrong?

Wuxia has been excised in favour of a thematic continuation of drop zone, which included moving the change in damage type inflicted by falling to level 8
I like this mechanic, but that text feels clunky. How about:

Drop Zone: At level 4, you suffer 1d6 lethal damage per 5 class level feet from falling (see Fantasy Craft, page 215), so long as you aren't paralyzed, unconscious, or dying. Also, you gain superior jumper I.

Perhaps the biggest change is the removal of spell points and replacing it with a similarly priced Edge pool to power Bulwark

Really not a fan of this Edge = Class level mechanic. It's implied that it can exceed the normal maximum of 5 Edge, so what's the point of having that be a hard ceiling everywhere else? The only Mastercraft Edge mechanic that I remember going above 5 is in Morg's Empty Sky Style feat chain, and that's an 8. And you lose all your edge when you go into the stance, and you lose the ability to gain edge by any other means than it's "once per turn gain 1 edge" ticker. Here, though, you can go to 10, can use all 10, but can only gain more if you drop below 5. That's ridiculous. What's the cost for this per scene edge generation, anyway? It looks like you cost'ed it at Med, but I don't think 1 Edge = 1 spell point. (Also, you Initiative column is using the defense column's numbers).  If you're gonna shoehorn Edge in the table costing, I think 1 per level is the high value, and medium would be 0, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5. But then again, I don't think Edge should be in the chart at all.
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« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2013, 11:40:37 PM »

I like the new changes, with one request: let Bulwark be granted to them adjacent to the Superior, and then not require continued adjacency.
I do like the new Drop Zone. That or Wuxia are fine, anything with a high cool factor. Cool
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« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2013, 03:41:23 AM »

This isn't Spycraft 2.0. Why crazy prereqs? That's not the Mastercraft style. What is the single (or at most two) most important prereq? Dump the others.

I disagree; the Mastercraft style is not to stack on prereqs that have onerous level/investment requirements. The feat is based in notion that you're stubbon, scary, and impressive, and could be purchased as early as 1st level. I could easily have made Iron Will a prerequisite, but decided it'd be more fun just to require an outcome that feat provides rather than the feat itself.

Quote
As far as the rest of it, it seems to say that you can appearance whammy anybody who hit you with Impress or Intimidate, whether they succeeded or failed. Correct? Or am I reading it wrong?

You can target them only if they failed. I've gone back and ramped down the effects -- it's now a single grade of shaken, but you now target the failed check maker plus a number of their pals equal to your appearance.

Gorgo's Grace has been edited to reflect this, which I think gives a closer feel to the scene on screen.

Quote
Wuxia has been excised in favour of a thematic continuation of drop zone, which included moving the change in damage type inflicted by falling to level 8
I like this mechanic, but that text feels clunky. How about:

Drop Zone: At level 4, you suffer 1d6 lethal damage per 5 class level feet from falling (see Fantasy Craft, page 215), so long as you aren't paralyzed, unconscious, or dying. Also, you gain superior jumper I.

I wanted a handy reference to the falling rules but suspect I need to take a leaf out of Scott's book. Edited accordingly.

Quote
Perhaps the biggest change is the removal of spell points and replacing it with a similarly priced Edge pool to power Bulwark

Really not a fan of this Edge = Class level mechanic. It's implied that it can exceed the normal maximum of 5 Edge, so what's the point of having that be a hard ceiling everywhere else?

There is a strong difference between what you start with and what you can maintain: Superiors build to having a head start on others as they gain class levels, but they still play in the same sand pit. I'm also working with an eye to the class being able to function in a game with either of these qualities in effect.

Quote
The only Mastercraft Edge mechanic that I remember going above 5 is in Morg's Empty Sky Style feat chain, and that's an 8. And you lose all your edge when you go into the stance, and you lose the ability to gain edge by any other means than it's "once per turn gain 1 edge" ticker.

Ooh, those feats would work very nicely for the a Superior

Quote
Here, though, you can go to 10, can use all 10, but can only gain more if you drop below 5. That's ridiculous.

Not at all. Think of it as something like Fervor, where you have extra vitality, but once you lose it no ordinary effect is going to give you the extra back and you can only heal back to your standard maximum vitality.

Quote
What's the cost for this per scene edge generation, anyway? It looks like you cost'ed it at Med, but I don't think 1 Edge = 1 spell point. If you're gonna shoehorn Edge in the table costing, I think 1 per level is the high value, and medium would be 0, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5. But then again, I don't think Edge should be in the chart at all.

This thread has Scott pricing the 1:1, and anything less than a minimum of 1 Edge per level gimps the class abilities given they were built around spell points.

Putting them on the progression in the same place as spell points is a suitable cost for the ability and means I don't have to lose a class ability to grant it.

Quote
(Also, you Initiative column is using the defense column's numbers).

I've bumped Init to Medium and Lifestyle to Low, figuring that Unearthly Splendor will handle Appearance boosts.

I like the new changes, with one request: let Bulwark be granted to them adjacent to the Superior, and then not require continued adjacency.
I do like the new Drop Zone. That or Wuxia are fine, anything with a high cool factor. Cool

Thinking about it, changing Bulwark I to the Superior's reach instead of strict adjacency works, increasing to allies within Close range for II as an appropriate escalation for a team buff.
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« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2013, 04:54:13 PM »

This isn't Spycraft 2.0. Why crazy prereqs? That's not the Mastercraft style. What is the single (or at most two) most important prereq? Dump the others.
I disagree; the Mastercraft style is not to stack on prereqs that have onerous level/investment requirements. The feat is based in notion that you're stubbon, scary, and impressive, and could be purchased as early as 1st level. I could easily have made Iron Will a prerequisite, but decided it'd be more fun just to require an outcome that feat provides rather than the feat itself.

Actually, it's been said in multiple con seminars (I've heard it in two) and posts prior to the great forum purge/update that stated (paraphrased) "we got rid of almost all feat prereqs because your character shouldn't have to wait levels or follow a tight, predetermined path to be awesome."  To that end, look through FC.  There are very few (non-species) feat that have more than one prereq, and those that do are usually saddled with the extra prereq being stuff like: Player Character Only, Caster Level 1+, Sorcery Campaign Quality... not necessarily crunch heavy or character path investments. The Species feat tree has stuff like : Human or Level 1 Only as their "extra" prereqs.

Martial Arts is the only feat in the game that has an actual, real, honest to god, list of genuine prereqs (and it's only 3). And that's really for one reason - FC's character power curve is about being competent in something to replace it with another (You want to use Wis for Unarmed attacks? Ok, but you gotta not suck at Str, then.). It's also the only feat (that I can think of right now) that is granted by a class ability with no sweetener. Why? because not having to have a 13 in both Str and Dex is the sweetener!

So, is This Is Sparta! as crunchy as Martial Artist? I don't think so. If you can find a parallel design that justifies it, please show me.  The Appearance prereq can be dropped with the addition of (minimum of 1) added on after the words Appearance modifier: ...and a number of their allies who can see and hear you up to your Appearance modifier (minimum of 1),.... the Will save prereq is cute, but unnecessary. This feat is about being scary and shrugging off others manipulations and putting the scary to work on those fools. The will save can often help with that, but isn't necessary. Punkin' a  Threaten action because you've got awesome resolve does everything here, too.

Quote
As far as the rest of it, it seems to say that you can appearance whammy anybody who hit you with Impress or Intimidate, whether they succeeded or failed. Correct? Or am I reading it wrong?
You can target them only if they failed. I've gone back and ramped down the effects -- it's now a single grade of shaken, but you now target the failed check maker plus a number of their pals equal to your appearance.
Gorgo's Grace has been edited to reflect this, which I think gives a closer feel to the scene on screen.

Cool, cool.

Quote
Wuxia has been excised in favour of a thematic continuation of drop zone, which included moving the change in damage type inflicted by falling to level 8
I like this mechanic, but that text feels clunky. How about:
Drop Zone: At level 4, you suffer 1d6 lethal damage per 5 class level feet from falling (see Fantasy Craft, page 215), so long as you aren't paralyzed, unconscious, or dying. Also, you gain superior jumper I.
I wanted a handy reference to the falling rules but suspect I need to take a leaf out of Scott's book. Edited accordingly.

Excellent.

Quote
Perhaps the biggest change is the removal of spell points and replacing it with a similarly priced Edge pool to power Bulwark
Really not a fan of this Edge = Class level mechanic. It's implied that it can exceed the normal maximum of 5 Edge, so what's the point of having that be a hard ceiling everywhere else?
There is a strong difference between what you start with and what you can maintain: Superiors build to having a head start on others as they gain class levels, but they still play in the same sand pit. I'm also working with an eye to the class being able to function in a game with either of these qualities in effect.

Then maybe those qualities should be in the class prereqs?

Quote
The only Mastercraft Edge mechanic that I remember going above 5 is in Morg's Empty Sky Style feat chain, and that's an 8. And you lose all your edge when you go into the stance, and you lose the ability to gain edge by any other means than it's "once per turn gain 1 edge" ticker.
Ooh, those feats would work very nicely for the a Superior

Well, yeah. You've got a broken Edge engine rollin'. Instead of trickling up to 8, you start with a full tank of 10.

Quote
Here, though, you can go to 10, can use all 10, but can only gain more if you drop below 5. That's ridiculous.
Not at all. Think of it as something like Fervor, where you have extra vitality, but once you lose it no ordinary effect is going to give you the extra back and you can only heal back to your standard maximum vitality.

Edge is a commodity, a fuel for other effects. Fervor doesn't have the same economy of use. Apples and oranges.

Quote
What's the cost for this per scene edge generation, anyway? It looks like you cost'ed it at Med, but I don't think 1 Edge = 1 spell point. If you're gonna shoehorn Edge in the table costing, I think 1 per level is the high value, and medium would be 0, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5. But then again, I don't think Edge should be in the chart at all.
This thread has Scott pricing the 1:1, and anything less than a minimum of 1 Edge per level gimps the class abilities given they were built around spell points.

I think Scott's pricing system there is based on a hard ceiling of 5 (or 8, if you want to have the "slow trickle into the big battery" stance going). Pushing it up to 10 kinda breaks it.
And if you're moving away for spell points as the pricing base, then work out a better scale. Don't force Edge to do SP's job. Change the job description, if you get what I mean.

Putting them on the progression in the same place as spell points is a suitable cost for the ability and means I don't have to lose a class ability to grant it.

I think that there's a reason that edge generation is fairly costly is every other thing that does it - and this really should take up a class ability. Sorry, but maybe you should explore that.

Quote
(Also, you Initiative column is using the defense column's numbers).
I've bumped Init to Medium and Lifestyle to Low, figuring that Unearthly Splendor will handle Appearance boosts.

Makes sense.
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