[mastercraft] New Paths: Riddick, Night & the Bat

[Sletchman]

I also changed unnerving to dread, which I think plays better to the idea of a victim lashing out blindly and hopelessly in the dark and failing to connect thanks to the Defence boost you get and they don't

I like that change, a lot - it really fits the feel of someone who is becoming one with the night [or just good ol' darkness] putting the willies in their opponents by simply not being there.

Interestingly enough - watch Batman Begins, and the Path fits him alarmingly well with his early fight at the docks [and for the entire film and it's sequel, but that sequence really stands out in my mind].

[Desertpuma]

Interestingly enough - watch Batman Begins, and the Path fits him alarmingly well with his early fight at the docks [and for the entire film and it's sequel, but that sequence really stands out in my mind].

Now imagine if you locked the two of them in a dark room together.

[Sletchman]

Interestingly enough - watch Batman Begins, and the Path fits him alarmingly well with his early fight at the docks [and for the entire film and it's sequel, but that sequence really stands out in my mind].

Now imagine if you locked the two of them in a dark room together.

Always bet on The Bat.  I will admit though, Riddick would make a pretty reasonable Batman adversary.

[Golden Dragon]

Always bet on The Bat.  I will admit though, Riddick would make a pretty reasonable Batman adversary.

Time to rewrite the Facts About Batman. (If Batman fought Batman, Batman would win. Period.) I know it's derivative, but this conversation made me think of it.

[Morgenstern]

Always bet on The Bat.  I will admit though, Riddick would make a pretty reasonable Batman adversary.

Always bet on the Bat failing to capture the badguy. If Riddick defines his victory conditions as "I'm leaving now" his odds are damn good in that fight .

[Mister Andersen]

Path of the Bat
This is a path for someone looking to direct their sense of loss and anger in a meaningful direction

Bat I: You gain the Rage Basics feat.
Bat II: Each time you fail an Acrobatics + Intimidate check and don't suffer an error, you still succeed as long as the check DC (or your opponent's check result) is equal to or less than 20 + your levels in all class granting you steps along Paths. If several grades of success are possible, you achieve only the lowest possible positive result.
Bat III: You may cast Scare II and Wit I each 1/scene, and your caster level is increased by your Charisma modifier (minimum 1).
Bat IV: You gain the Horror Type and grueling combatant quality.
Bat V: You gain ability the Scout's Master Tracker ability.

[Sletchman]

That's not to shabby.

How would flawless abilities work as part of a path?  If you have a Priest 5 / Paladin 5 is your result floor 30?  Seems like a yes if you'd grabbed at least one step as part of both classes, but what if you only grabbed steps via Priest?  How about a Priest 10 who has finished the path - will his expert classes ever contribute levels [they would grant access to the path, but not steps themselves]?

[Mister Andersen]

It stacks, just like any other flawless ability. There's a stress point if you're granting steps via feat, but that's self-containable within the quality as I mention above -- replacing class level with a flat 2 x Step works out nicely. While on a side by side analysis it's a point ahead of someone who picks up all five steps via Priest or remaining dedicated to a base class granting a flawless ability, they've also going to have spent every level based feat + taken a specialty granting Blessed/first step in order to get there.

Spiritual Growth
     Requires Miracles campaign quality.
     If you have an alignment, when you gain a level based feat you may instead chose to gain the next step along any one of your alignment's Paths. Any ability granted by a Path that is calculated using class or caster level uses a the higher of a value equal to twice your Step on that path and any levels in a class through which one or more steps of that path were gained.

A little clunky maybe, but you can see the idea that classes that use paths as an integral part have primacy over other means of acquisition.

[Morgenstern]

Path of the Bat
This is a path for someone looking to direct their sense of loss and anger in a meaningful direction

Bat I: You gain the Rage Basics feat and may cast Endure Elements at will.

And here we go... A feat that grants a feat and more. Madness. Yes it follows precedent, but its bad precedent.

Bat II: You gain Flawless Acrobatics + Intimidate. Each time you fail a check with these skills and don't suffer an error, you still succeed as long as the check DC (or your opponent's check result) is equal to or less than 20 + your levels in the class(es) granting this Path. If several grades of success are possible, you achieve only the lowest possible positive result.

Suggest subtle wording change for all of these:

Bat II: Each time you fail an Acrobatic or Intimidate check and don't suffer an error, you still succeed as long as the check DC (or your opponent's check result) is equal to or less than 20 + your levels in all class granting you steps along Paths. If several grades of success are possible, you achieve only the lowest possible positive result.

Tighter and resolves some wierdness in gaining levels in Priest or Paladin but not actually advancing this path, possibly because you completed it before changing to the second class.

Bat V: You the Priest's Saved! (Will) ability.

THAT crashes almost instantly. That class ability is gonna have to be off limits, even if it fits the base class 10/20 seen in other paths..

[Mister Andersen]

Path of the Bat
This is a path for someone looking to direct their sense of loss and anger in a meaningful direction

Bat I: You gain the Rage Basics feat and may cast Endure Elements at will.

And here we go... A feat that grants a feat and more. Madness. Yes it follows precedent, but its bad precedent.

I was thinking it was flavoursome and channeled that scene from Batman Begins nicely and couldn't think of anywhere else for it to go, but it's not vital.

Bat II: You gain [Blah + Blah]

Suggest subtle wording change for all of these:

[snip]

Tighter and resolves some wierdness in gaining levels in Priest or Paladin but not actually advancing this path, possibly because you completed it before changing to the second class.

Cool

Bat V: You the Priest's Saved! (Will) ability.

THAT crashes almost instantly. That class ability is gonna have to be off limits, even if it fits the base class 10/20 seen in other paths..

In all honestly, I put there as much to see if anyone would notice as because it fit the steely determination of the BatFamily.

Replaced with Master Tracker, which fits just as well, and gives a nod to the clan's detective origins

[Sletchman]

Nice alteration to the flawless abilities in a Path, Morg.  I can certainly see myself using it written in that way in the future.

[Golden Dragon]

And here we go... A feat that grants a feat and more. Madness. Yes it follows precedent, but its bad precedent.

I want to unpack this comment. Is this a case of: (1) for Blessed and an interest, we get a feat and more, or (2) for a class ability that should be on par with a bonus feat, we get a feat and more?

[Morgenstern]

Ok, try this.

BASIC COMBAT FEATS

Busted Combatant
This feat is a recursive nightmare.
Prerequisite: An intrest (which you where likely to take anyway)
Benefit: Choose a Basic Combat feat. You get it.
Special: Sometimes, on a blue moon, you also get even more mechanical advantage. ...Because it's cool.

Many tricks count feats. A feat that grants a feat is busted to begin with. A feat that grants a feat and more is recursive trouble. The "cost" of an interest isn't a cost at all, because it's still providing value. "You get one less interest" is very different from "you have to spend an interest in a particular, but still useful way".

Blessed is always going to ride the raged edge of recursive, and Paths are always going to be subject to extra scrutiny because of Blessed's existance. For goodness sakes, Blessed is a SPELLCASTING feat... it gives a +1 to the DC of all your spell saves just by virtue of being in that tree. The old path of Magic had to be obliterated because of this. ANd it had to go just because it was granting a feat and nothing more at step I.

A feat plus more for Step I can be cool, but mostly it's brute force. I'm going to mention it every time I see it in something I'm offering a critique on, because it's bad design to make players an offer that's that good, even if it is flavorful. If the extra bit is that flavorful, dump the feat and put something else small but flavorful there with it.

[Golden Dragon]

I'm going to read this as: With Blessed available, this is a problem.

With the Path of Magic problem, and the problems we see here, I'm thinking Blessed needs to come out of the toolbox.

[Morgenstern]

I'm going to read this as: With Blessed available, this is a problem.

Honestly, Blessed just lays it extremely bare. It's tempting to say "Feat+minor goody is ok, because it's being taken as the first level of Priest" and IF that were actually true, I'd tend to agree. But it's not. Step I's can be taken at any time along a class that's granting steps, and if the 3/5/7/9/11/13/15/17/19 ability of Soldier can get along just fine with a feat and nothing more, what's so sub-par about Priest that it needs to be able to take a feat+goody in any of those slots? Answer: nothing. It's over powered.

With the Path of Magic problem, and the problems we see here, I'm thinking Blessed needs to come out of the toolbox.

That's a tough one. Blessed serves an interesting role in some campaigns, enabling playable archetypes who are - exactly as labeled on the tin - "blessed" by the powers that be of that setting. But at the end of the day that same archetype could be achieved by taking 1 level of Priest, so I tend to agree its a can of worms that might be best set aside. I just cringe at having to label Paths "safe for RAW" and "No Blessed feat only".

Hmm. It might help if there were standard language that said "This Path may not be advanced with the Blessed feat". Its a bit cludgey- more than just curtailing your exuberance as a creator.