3.5/Pathfinder feats with Fantasy Craft?

[Zdan]

First of all - as this is my first post here - hello to all fellow Fantasy Craft maniacs!

And to the makers of the game - congratulations on an AWESOME product. Fantasy Craft is really really customisable and full of options. Granted the crunch factor is pretty high but nothing a 3.5 gamer could not stand. And the artwork is awesome. Congratulations all around!

Now onto the topic at hand - as I will be trying to start a Fantasy Craft campaign soon I have a question about regular 3.5/Pathfinder feats in Fantasy Craft - was the system designed to incorporate those? Can it be done with unbalancing the system? Have any of you tried to include them (stuff like Power Attack or the metamagic feats)?

[Krensky]

Welcome to the board.

I find most 3.5/PF feats to be underpowered, although there are a number that are overpowered.

Which feats in particular?

All Out Attack replaces Power Attack.

The Spellcasting feats are full of Metamagic feats. The Spell Conversion series and Hidden Spells should cover the Metamagic bases.

[Zdan]

Welcome to the board.

I find most 3.5/PF feats to be underpowered, although there are a number that are overpowered.

Which feats in particular?

All Out Attack replaces Power Attack.

The Spellcasting feats are full of Metamagic feats. The Spell Conversion series and Hidden Spells should cover the Metamagic bases.

As for the spellcasting feats - sorry about that - have not looked at those as I just got my book yesterday. Hard to get product like this in frickin' Poland.

As for feats - talking in general and meaning no special cases. But as I skimmed the Fantasy Craft feats again the 3.5 ones ARE a bit underpowered compared to the Fantasy Craft ones!

[Krensky]

Basically, it's a bit of art.

Take whatever feat you like from 3.5/PF and then consider what it does mechanically and flavor wise. Then look for similar things in FC and build from there.

Many 3.5 ones are underpowered in some way or are dealing with considerations that FC does not have. Most PF ones are better, but again typically deal with issues FC doesn't have or systems it does differently.

Coming from those other systems, read the 'trap' feats over carefully. The save boosters and the skill boosting feats in particular.

Like I said, All Out Attack is the equivalent of Power Attack. Now, it limits you to only taking a -4, but it give you double that magnitude as a bonus. The penalty though, applies to all skill checks in addition to all attacks, and if you miss you're flat footed.

FC (and it's ancestor Spycraft 2.0) are among the best balanced systems I've played with, but it's balance can be subtle at times. Best advice to an new player or DM is to forget D&D, things work different here.

All that said, it's your game. If you want to use 3.5 or Pathfinder or d20 Modern or any other d20 variant's feats, have at it.


Edit: Oh, also as a new FC GM read the GM chapter, it has a lot of good advice and discussion of the game. Also check out the Guidance and Errata document, even if you have the second printing. The first three pages are a discussion of the game's design principles.

[Zdan]

Thank you - I understand. I will probably forgo any DnD feats whatsoever as the options Fantasy Craft gives to martial characters can be pretty breathtaking as they are.

But I guess my main concern was with feats like the save bonus feats. Especially them as I saw problems with them crop up in many a Pathfinder game.

[Sletchman]

But I guess my main concern was with feats like the save bonus feats. Especially them as I saw problems with them crop up in many a Pathfinder game.

The upshot of the FC version of those feats is that they don't suck.  I've yet to see a D&D character with Great Fortitude that didn't require it for a prestige class, in FC players in my group regularly take them to either shore up defences or for the extra boost [Lightning Reflexes is a favourite].

I recommend running the game with just the book first, and then see what stuff players want to do that isn't represented and build from there - fill in gaps you find rather then trying to predict what gaps might exist.

[Zetesofos]

Basically, it's a bit of art.

Take whatever feat you like from 3.5/PF and then consider what it does mechanically and flavor wise. Then look for similar things in FC and build from there.

Many 3.5 ones are underpowered in some way or are dealing with considerations that FC does not have. Most PF ones are better, but again typically deal with issues FC doesn't have or systems it does differently.

Coming from those other systems, read the 'trap' feats over carefully. The save boosters and the skill boosting feats in particular.

Like I said, All Out Attack is the equivalent of Power Attack. Now, it limits you to only taking a -4, but it give you double that magnitude as a bonus. The penalty though, applies to all skill checks in addition to all attacks, and if you miss you're flat footed.

FC (and it's ancestor Spycraft 2.0) are among the best balanced systems I've played with, but it's balance can be subtle at times. Best advice to an new player or DM is to forget D&D, things work different here.

All that said, it's your game. If you want to use 3.5 or Pathfinder or d20 Modern or any other d20 variant's feats, have at it.


Edit: Oh, also as a new FC GM read the GM chapter, it has a lot of good advice and discussion of the game. Also check out the Guidance and Errata document, even if you have the second printing. The first three pages are a discussion of the game's design principles.

just as an ad-hoc question, why does All out attack give twice bonus as hit penalty, where as bullseye only gives a 1:1 ratio.  Is there some balancing factor I'm missing?

[Krensky]

just as an ad-hoc question, why does All out attack give twice bonus as hit penalty, where as bullseye only gives a 1:1 ratio.  Is there some balancing factor I'm missing?

At a guess? Because melee is more dangerous then ranged. Also because ranged attacks tend to have more AP.

[Sletchman]

just as an ad-hoc question, why does All out attack give twice bonus as hit penalty, where as bullseye only gives a 1:1 ratio.  Is there some balancing factor I'm missing?

At a guess? Because melee is more dangerous then ranged. Also because ranged attacks tend to have more AP.

I'd also add that ranged is, well, ranged.  You have to be up in their business to use All Out Attack, but you can use Bullseye from a considerable distance - it's a safer way to apply violence.

[Banesfinger]

Many 3.5 ones are underpowered in some way or are dealing with considerations that FC does not have. Most PF ones are better, but again typically deal with issues FC doesn't have or systems it does differently.

I feel the same way - the FC feats "feel" more useful (typically taking 2 PF feats to do the same thing).
This can be a big problem in conversions (e.g. you want to run a PF adventure using FC - the encounter conversions are not a straight forward formula...)

[Crafty_Alex]

just as an ad-hoc question, why does All out attack give twice bonus as hit penalty, where as bullseye only gives a 1:1 ratio.  Is there some balancing factor I'm missing?

At a guess? Because melee is more dangerous then ranged. Also because ranged attacks tend to have more AP.

I'd also add that ranged is, well, ranged.  You have to be up in their business to use All Out Attack, but you can use Bullseye from a considerable distance - it's a safer way to apply violence.

Both good guesses, and correct. I think the bigger picture issue is when that same feat is inevitably applied to the modern day, where melee combat is greatly devalued over the almighty handgun. Keeping that in mind when looking at Mastercraft (and not just Fantasy Craft) and it makes much more sense.

[Nova]

The big feat game in 3.5 (slightly less so in pathfinder but only by virtue of "there's not a thousand books with feats in them) is that while many are really weak, some are lackluster and don't really give you anything awesome till later down the line when all of a sudden you get one that lets you combine it all.

A good example of doing this mostly through race/class is the Hulking Hurler.

An example for what could easily be a paladin is Power-Attack + Leap Attack + Improved Bullrush>>Shock Trooper and combat brute. Combines even better with the "charging smite" alternative class feature and, of course, a 2h.

Once you have all these, it lets you take power attack as an AC (instead of to-hit) penalty, letting you go all the way and still be certain of hitting. All of these are nothing but boring extra multipliers to power attack. Next thing you know you're staring at 12x what you put into your power attack, plus a triple-strength smite that can be further multiplied from certain abilities. On a crit, you're pumping out enough to down a great-wyrm 2-4 times over.

There's not really much save the "use your turn-undead uses for this instead" in terms of extra abilities in comparison though, especially to FC.