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Author Topic: "Remember when Elf was a class?" The Incarnate [Base, Specialties]  (Read 881 times)
pawsplay
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« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2015, 08:50:04 PM »

Once upon a time, I opined that a Specialty is what you are, and your class is how you solve problems. The essence of this class, I understand it, is "I solve problems by using species-specific or mixed blood abilities." There really isn't anything about cross-training or other pick-a-mix elements that really seems to fit that theme to me. Instead, the class is treated as a toolkit to a custom wildcard. That almost isn't even a class.  It's like a method for making Fantasy Craft into a menu-driven custom character process.

Like, imagine your character is Thorin Oakenshield. He's a very dwarfish dwarf. It seems to me like you would want this class to reflect his exceptional heritage. But I think you would get a lot more mileage from a new specialty and the Soldier class. His noble lineage is his Origin.

Or if your character is some sort of mongrel. Most of what you want should be there at 1st level. Being a mongrel is an origin, not something you grow into.
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Mutt
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« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2015, 08:56:13 PM »

@Morgenstern: Now I'm going to need to start wearing tinfoil, since I'm working on such a project as we speak. It will hopefully be completed by the end of the week.
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TKDB
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« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2015, 11:36:50 PM »

I'm a bit ambivalent on the value of this class as a way of approaching the theme you're aiming for; personally, I'd probably lean more toward using a suite of various Specialty and expert/master class options as more focused means to convey the "paragon of your kind" flavor, rather than trying to use a single base class as a build-your-own-wildcard toolkit to try to accomodate all the wildly varying possibilities that exist across the spectrum of different species and splinter races. Honestly, in the end, if you're wanting to be an archetypal paragon, you're going to be able to pull that off a lot more effectively by selecting a more focused class geared toward your race's archetypal role, rather than trying to pull together a set of benefits from a toolkit. I could see a place for a base class granting Species feats, but it should probably be in a somewhat more focused context than simply "racial paragon" -- likely something along the lines of an atavistic/feral type with a focus on instinct and natural capabilities. Given the general focus of Species feats, and how unique it would be for a base class to grant Species feats, it stands to reason that a base class that grants Species feats should be aimed more toward mastery of the body and so forth. (And now I've got my gears turning thinking about this sort of class concept...)

But at any rate, as far as mechanical critiques for the class itself, I will point out that the gamebreaker is potentially a bit on the weak side. Gaining an additional Specialty is actually the F slot ability for the Seer class in its Spycraft 2.0 version, and if that detail is retained for the Fantasy Craft version coming out soon then giving the same thing with only a slight sweetener for a gamebreaker is definitely going to look rather wimpy by comparison.
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paddyfool
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« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2015, 02:19:46 AM »

There may also be room for more master classes akin to the Dragon Lord (Dwarf Lord, Elf Lord, Orc High Chief, Goblin King, Tallest of Trees, etc).

Another possibility would be racial substitution levels a la ToG, but I'm not a massive fan.

EDIT: on the Speciality front, it's tempting to do something along the lines of ToG's racial paragon classes (I'm not really satisfied with how my old generic Paragon speciality does this. The Monster speciality which I made at the same time would probably do a better job as an Orc or Ogre paragon, for starters.  And overall it's more fun and appropriate to have species-specific or, in some niche-cases, even splinter-feat specific paragons).
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 04:42:37 AM by paddyfool » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2015, 05:03:23 AM »

Do not worry, I am working on a group of Specialties that would match up for (most of) the species feats in both the Core Book and the Adventure's Companion. So, this class might not be strictly necessary anymore.

However. I am still sticking with my opinion on this, in that it is a class that fills a niche not yet seen in FC; that of the 'solo jack-of-all-trades'. A Sage is fine at what he does, but he is severely limited in what he does best without any allies around him; a solo Sage is at a bit of a disadvantage for his abilities. In addition, his Cross-Training seems less integral to him; it might be his "Iconic Ability", but I still think it could be shared among other classes. And so, the Incarnate shall stay (although like I said, there's likely to be other specialties coming to this thread or their own thread later on, so stay tuned).
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paddyfool
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« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2015, 05:39:19 AM »

Indeed.

But on the subject of species paragons:

Human Paragon:
Prerequisites: Species (human)
Bonus feat: Any for which they qualify (2 points)
Sharp mind: +1 skill point per level (2 points)
More than luck: +1 starting action die (3 points)

Dwarf Paragon:
Prerequisites: Species (dwarf)
Bonus feat: Any species feat with the dwarf prerequisite (2 points)
Attribute training: +1 to lower of Str and Wis (1 point)
Push it to the limit (1 point)
Unbreakable (1 point)
Extra crafting focus (1 point)
Extra proficiency (either Edged or Blunt; 1 point)

Alternatively, possibly Stand Together somewhere...

Elf Paragon:
Prerequisites: Species (elf)
Bonus feat: Any species feat with the elf prerequisite (2 points)
Attribute training: +1 to lower of Dexterity and Charisma (1 point)
Beguiling (2 points)
Animal Empathy (1 point)
Agile Defence (1 point)

Alternatively, possibly Bow Proficiency in place of either of the last two.

etc.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2015, 06:05:43 AM by paddyfool » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2015, 03:45:18 PM »

Solo jack-of-all-trades, eh? Well, a jack-of-all-trades is not going to be as good at something as a specialized character, which means their natural role is supporting another character in a task, either by doing the task almost as well, or by providing a minor capability where before there was none. On the other hand, a jack-of-all-trades could be a master of all trades, a one-man party. Which is bad, of course. I don't think "solo jack-of-all-trades" makes sense outside of one-player games.

Is this really intended as a jack-of-all-trades, or as a wildcard's wildcard? Where do you see this character locking into a three to five character party?
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« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2015, 04:10:17 PM »

Is this really intended as a jack-of-all-trades, or as a wildcard's wildcard? Where do you see this character locking into a three to five character party?

The Incarnate's role is that of someone who isn't sure what they want to play, but knows that they don't want to multiclass very much. Compared to a Sage, the Incarnate cannot:
-Gain 4 more skills than normal, only gain 'floating' skills like the Priest
-Reduce the time it takes someone to utilize a skill
-Replace a skill bonus with a better one from an ally, or replace an ally's bonus with their own
-Gain temporary Chance feats, arguably one of the best feat groups to get temporary feats in
-Recover the vitality of allies
-Increase the Starting Action Dice of the party
-Benefit from the GM granting a 4-AD-worth boon to the whole party

Instead, the Incarnate can do the following:
-Improve their attributes slightly and gain semi-mystical ability with their Body/Mind/Spirit
-Gain 5 bonus feats over their career (6 if they have the Core Ability)
-Gain Renown 4 times (useful if you're keeping Prizes or trying to schmooze through Favors, not too important otherwise)
-Round themselves out with useful self-boosters
-Gain extra wounds
-Gain a second specialty

Really, the only thing they share with the Sage is the Cross-Training ability. If there is an ability I would trade out, it would be the Life of Discipline ability with something a bit more focused and less choosy. Maybe they could get a bonus feat chain + improved skill caps for a skill like the Lancer, but I don't know what feat chain or skill to grant them.

I see this character as several things...
-A Drake that wants to improve their flying and fire-breathing capabilities so that they don't need to rely on unarmed combat or magic to be a fighter
-An Elf who wants to be semi-decent at magical abilities, archery, tracking, and rubbing elbows at parties without needing to have two or three different Base Classes
-The human who is half-angel and half-devil, whose inner struggle is the stuff that legends (and Subplots) are made of
-The Unborn that improves himself as he adventures; he gains flight after a little bit, then he gains some in-built tools to use, and then he makes himself some extra hands to be even better at building or fighting
-Other homebrew races that don't have much, or any, other support beyond their original creator

Overall, these are character concepts that are difficult to accomplish without multiclassing heavily, and I wanted a class that could cater to those sorts of characters. It fills a niche that does not yet officially have an answer, and I don't see anything wrong with the class balance-wise (I could be wrong of course, since balance isn't my best skill).
That is where I see the Incarnate in a party, as the character whose player wants a little bit of everything without being Magical (either Arcane or Divine) or a Chance-and-Action-Die monkey (the Sage).
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« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2015, 05:46:07 PM »

I think you've identified the flavor you are looking for, but I'm not seeing a role. "Making myself happy with the character I'm picturing in my head" isn't a strong rationale in itself.
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