Lancer problem...

[Arioch]

Hi to all... I've questions about the lancers:

1) why a lancer should spend points 4 ride given the born in saddle? (power playing siderale talking)

2) he can be tripped too easily by anyone... He does not have the acrobatics as a class skill and if armored heavily has a lot of penalty...

Thanks!!

[Jake]

1. Because you can get a better result when rolling a d20, you're more likely to suffer an error without any ranks, you cannot get a critical success when using Born in the Saddle, BitS only works for 1 grade of success, and without any ranks in ride the maximum result you can receive from BiTS is 15 (pg. 63)

2. Yep, those are the brakes. If you're worried about being tripped while riding I think you use the ride skill instead of acrobatics. You can also take Acrobatics as an origin skill (see page 9). You can reduce the penalties to acrobatics with armor upgrades and some magic stuff.

[Mister Andersen]

1A) Most GCs will hold untrained skill cap trumps a flawless ability
1B) You will meet DCs higher than class-level+20
1C) You don't get to learn to ride/drive any other type of mount/vehicle until you dump 4 points into it

2) That's what origin skills and clever talent/specialty choices are for.

[Big_Jim]

1) So he can get more ride focuses - and be more awesome at pretty much everything as seen in the answer for question two, below.

2) Lancers are pretty hard to trip... when mounted. Not only will the lancer get a size bonus (most likely) due to his mount, while mounted he uses his RIDE skill for any Acrobatics or Athletics checks (except Climb or Tumble). Still think you don't want any ranks in ride Mr. Lancer? 

[pawsplay]

Hi to all... I've questions about the lancers:

1) why a lancer should spend points 4 ride given the born in saddle? (power playing siderale talking)

Actually, you'll want 1 Rank, to get the Focus and ignore untrained penalties.

2) he can be tripped too easily by anyone... He does not have the acrobatics as a class skill and if armored heavily has a lot of penalty...

Thanks!!

Mounted, he can still lean on Born in the Saddle.

[paddyfool]

1) why a lancer should spend points 4 ride given the born in saddle? (power playing siderale talking)

He'll want to invest points in Ride to one of three extents, depending on what the player wants him to do.

a) If the player wants him to be merely serviceable at riding one type of mount, and to focus on other skills, he'll want just one rank in Ride to minimise his error rate.  e.g. "Agrul, seasoned wolf-rider with zen-like calm, extensive wilderness lore, an eye for danger, a knowledge of ambushes, and a fearsome mien" (ie mostly investing skill ranks in Resolve, Survival, Notice, Tactics and Intimidate).

b) If the player wants him to be able to ride multiple types of mount, to have access to higher grades of success in checks where that applies, to have a chance to succeed at very high DC ride checks, and to be able to continue his progression if he multiclasses out, he'll want max ranks.  e.g. "Baradar,  exotic beast trainer with a real yen for mastering and riding all manner of hoofed and winged creatures" (maxed Ride and Survival, plus whatever else the player feels like taking, going into Beastmaster)

c) If the player wants to be truly awesome as a horseman/vehicle driver/whatever, he can probably boost your his Ride to a point where Born in the Saddle will hardly ever affect it.  e.g. Dex 18 (+4), prodigal skill & maxed ranks (+6+level), the skill mastery feat line (+2/+4/+6 & other bonuses), plus magic item bonuses etc.  e.g. "Culaythan appeared born in the saddle, and also swiftly turned his talents to the control of all manner of outlandish contraptions and riding all manner of strange creatures.  A restless wanderer and peerless racer, hardly seen to walk anywhere, or to stay still."  It'll cost you him, though.

[Arioch]

Thanks you all a lot for your answers!!

[pawsplay]

In the case C) it is my observation, perhaps heretically, that you might as well invest only 1 rank in the other skill in the pair. Trying to outpace an automatic skill result in two skills is not really worth the effort in most cases.

For a discussion of the Explorer or non-Explorer wrestler, see:

http://www.crafty-games.com/forum/index.php?topic=4397.0

[Catodon]

Also:
2: All charcters have weak and strong points but your enemies don't nessisarily know what your weak points are. A character with no weak points is a game breaker.

[Golden Dragon]

Also:
2: All charcters have weak and strong points but your enemies don't nessisarily know what your weak points are. A character with no weak points is a game breaker.

There is a great line from The Jeweler's Shop written by a little-known polish cleric, that runs to the effect:

"A man's greatness is measured by the product of his achievements and his weakness."

Think of a rectangle, and calculating the area. I'll leave the figuring of consequences to the reader.

[paddyfool]

From personal experience:

My Nimble Adventurer Burglar/Deadeye maxed out both Sneak and Acrobatics, to be truly very good at both, and to enable further progression as a Deadeye (Acrobatics is his third origin skill, courtesy of the reworking of Adventurer).  The main problem with this is the temptation to abuse Tripping.

My Fire Brave Ogre Gladiator Assassin, however, has only invested one rank in Blend and Resolve.  He's invested his skill points elsewhere, partly because he has relatively few to spend with an Int of 10.

[Typhon]

Another note, if the lancer is mounted, you're tripping the mount, not the lancer.
Don't forget the mount's size to factor in not to mention it has 4 legs.

[Arioch]

After reading all your answers...

My opinion is that RIDE with the modifiers listed in table 2.17 could logically substitute an ATHLETIC check to avoid tripping while mounted.

In this case, should the "born in saddle" ability of the Lancer be useful?

EDIT: ehm... the last sentence was meant to be a question 

[Morgenstern]

Another note, if the lancer is mounted, you're tripping the mount, not the lancer.
Don't forget the mount's size to factor in not to mention it has 4 legs.

All of which lead to why tripping a mounted character with one opposed roll is all it takes - it's a pretty rough roll to make if they have the skill to hang on and you don't have a comperable sized mount yourself. Acrobatic mounts (most flying ones) might have bonuses as good or better than the rider's to avoid attempts to strip off their 'turret' .

[Jake]

After reading all your answers...
My opinion is that RIDE with the modifiers listed in table 2.17 could logically substitute an ATHLETIC check to avoid tripping while mounted.
In this case, should the "born in saddle" ability of the Lancer be useful?
EDIT: ehm... the last sentence was meant to be a question 

Yes, you can substitute Ride for Acrobatics to avoid being tripped while mounted and if your roll fails Born in the Saddle applies.