Character Generators?

[TheTSKoala]

I'm not sure where to even put this as a category, so I'll toss it under Toolkits, as it seems to be the best fit.  Back in my Star Wars D20 days, we had this nifty little VB program that one of the "bigger known" community types had created that stored all the feats, requirements and classes and helped you stat out characters and even gave you a print out.  Now, I know the wrath of WOTC's pwn stick came down with a writ of cease and do no more.. and we lost said program. 

I was wondering.  1.)  If such a program exists for Spycraft 2.0 and 2.) Is CG against the development of such a software by a non-CG entity for the various reasons a company could have.  (IP protection, future licensing, brand development, etc.)

[Crafty_Pat]

We're not opposed at all. However, any such program would have to respect our copyrights and IP claims. Even with an OGL game, we can't have a character generator circumventing the need for a product. (That, BTW, is why the deal with PCGen fell through - sad, but true.)

Hopefully we'll make something happen with one of the other software developers out there. If anyone knows a group that's interested, please send them our way.

[TheAuldGrump]

We're not opposed at all. However, any such program would have to respect our copyrights and IP claims. Even with an OGL game, we can't have a character generator circumventing the need for a product. (That, BTW, is why the deal with PCGen fell through - sad, but true.)

Hopefully we'll make something happen with one of the other software developers out there. If anyone knows a group that's interested, please send them our way.

As an aside - have you considered dealing with Code Monkey Publishing rather than PCGen? They were able to handle IP from WotC, and kept it separate from standard PCGen material.

MetaCreator is another possibility.

The Auld Grump

[TheTSKoala]

Replace the need of the product?  Dear lord, have you held the Spycraft 2.0 book lately?  LOL.  Some books have enough 'fluff material' they could almost count as marshmellows.  Spycraft book, I've started to notice it creating it's own gravitational pull in my library....

All kidding aside, at least the option is there.

[Daedalus4096]

We're not opposed at all. However, any such program would have to respect our copyrights and IP claims. Even with an OGL game, we can't have a character generator circumventing the need for a product. (That, BTW, is why the deal with PCGen fell through - sad, but true.)

Hopefully we'll make something happen with one of the other software developers out there. If anyone knows a group that's interested, please send them our way.

As someone who's had the off-and-on urge to build a tool like this, what sort of rules would it need to abide by in order to show that respect for your IP?  I'm unclear on where the line between "assistance" and "replacement" is, and would prefer to avoid stepping over it.

[TheTSKoala]

If I remember my civil law classes, it's been a few years...

"The tool could not be for cost or profit without signed consent of Crafty Games.  The tool could not list any details of what an ability, feat, skill or other 'proprietary mechanic' actually did.  (Like, you could have list the requirements and name of a feat, but not the effect.)  The tool could not infringe on Crafty Games used art or claim to be a product of Crafty Games." 

...and probably a few other laws I missed.

*edited for missed sentence*

[Crafty_Pat]

As an aside - have you considered dealing with Code Monkey Publishing rather than PCGen? They were able to handle IP from WotC, and kept it separate from standard PCGen material.

We were dealing with Code Monkey directly from the get-go.

MetaCreator is another possibility.

Interesting. It looks functional but has it been supported at all since 2002?

[Crafty_Pat]

As someone who's had the off-and-on urge to build a tool like this, what sort of rules would it need to abide by in order to show that respect for your IP?  I'm unclear on where the line between "assistance" and "replacement" is, and would prefer to avoid stepping over it.

It varies by section of the book (i.e. type of rules), but the main thing is that the book remain the primary reference point. The perfect generator for us would give you plenty of ways to speed up the process of creating a character, but the book still needs to be integral when learning how the rules work and applying them.

A good example: The gear chapter. So it might seem like a good idea to include the whole stat line in a generator, but that's not an option as it would consume better than 50% of the chapter's remaining utility. A reasonable chunk of the basic gear rules would also have to go into a generator to let people choose gear, as would encumbrance, various formulae, and maybe some other minor stuff. Add all that together and too much of the rules are shifting away from the book to become part of the generator's content.

Similar issues exist with class and feat abilities, where even abbreviated summaries can be a problem. Assuming the feat requirements are included (and they'd have to be), if a feat's total benefit is "+2 to Will saves," adding just that line would eliminate the book as a step in using that feat. We would require something like, "Minor Will save bonus" or something.

All this gets even more complicated when you consider the PDF market, where some of our releases could be consumed in their entirety. It's a minefield of considerations out the gate.

If, however, you're interested in helping us develop something within these constraints, please drop me a line. We'll talk.

[Crafty_Pat]

If I remember my civil law classes, it's been a few years...

"The tool could not be for cost or profit without signed consent of Crafty Games.  The tool could not list any details of what an ability, feat, skill or other 'proprietary mechanic' actually did.  (Like, you could have list the requirements and name of a feat, but not the effect.)  The tool could not infringe on Crafty Games used art or claim to be a product of Crafty Games." 

...and probably a few other laws I missed.

*edited for missed sentence*

True, and one of the reasons we're looking at paid generators as much as free ones is that we'd be more inclined toward including various things if the product generated revenue.

[TheTSKoala]

I can understand that one perfectly well Crafty_Pat.  My time reviewing case law for school, to count the number of cases where Pro-bono (no fee or without profit) transactions went terribly wrong and suddenly turned into mind bending litigation would require NASA super-computers and 7 pages of numbers.    The trick will always be finding a solution where the software engineers and Crafty Games can come to a bottom-line friendly, business 'safe' transaction.  Best of luck! 

[tenebrae]

We were dealing with Code Monkey directly from the get-go.

With all due respect, I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. Eddy Anthony was the main programmer on the Spycraft 2.0 dataset (I made a few contributions too) until the project was cancelled at Crafty's request, and he's a PCGen team member, not a CMP employee.

(All PCGen team members are ranked by monkey status [e.g. Code gibbon], so that might have been the origin of the misunderstanding)

[Nezeray]

For D&D I use Heroforge (http://www.nzcomputers.net/heroforge/) or MetaCreator.  Both do the calculations for you but the descriptions are absent or they are the official OGL content and nothing more.  My only problem with MetaCreator is that the D&D stuff hasn't been updated with the new books while Heroforge is.

I thought I saw a Spycraft 2.0 spreadsheet somewhere that was useful, yet confusing as heck without the book.  Luckily I borrowed someone's before Gencon to make my Living Spycraft character. 

Still waiting on my copy from Mongoose.  I'm sure it'll be a while, but should be worth the wait.

James / Nezeray

[TheAuldGrump]

As an aside - have you considered dealing with Code Monkey Publishing rather than PCGen? They were able to handle IP from WotC, and kept it separate from standard PCGen material.

We were dealing with Code Monkey directly from the get-go.

MetaCreator is another possibility.

Interesting. It looks functional but has it been supported at all since 2002?

Yep - new updates have included 5th edition Ars Magica and Savage Worlds, neither of which existed in 2002.
For some reason Alter Ego has ben mentioning updates on their home site rather than the MetaCreator homepage...here.

The Auld Grump

[Crafty_Pat]

We were dealing with Code Monkey directly from the get-go.

With all due respect, I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. Eddy Anthony was the main programmer on the Spycraft 2.0 dataset (I made a few contributions too) until the project was cancelled at Crafty's request, and he's a PCGen team member, not a CMP employee.

(All PCGen team members are ranked by monkey status [e.g. Code gibbon], so that might have been the origin of the misunderstanding)

Huh. I stand corrected. Eddy was our main contact and I was under the impression he was Code Monkey, but then I was always a little confused by the relationship between companies, so it's entirely possible I was wrong. 

[Crafty_Pat]

Good data here, guys. Thanks! We're taking a hard look at our options at this point and as soon as we reach a happy place with something, you'll be the first to know.