[World on Fire] Tastes like...mouthwash

[MilitiaJim]

Governments do very very bad things so that I can enjoy the good life I lead. I sleep much better at night not knowing what it is they do.

Are you implying that you don't care what they do in your name, as long as they don't tell you? If you want to figuratively stick your head in the sand, that's your perogative, but personally I want to know what the bastards running my life are up to.

It's nice to know that I'm not alone in being irritated by this negligent attitude.

[Dace]

Governments do very very bad things so that I can enjoy the good life I lead. I sleep much better at night not knowing what it is they do.

Are you implying that you don't care what they do in your name, as long as they don't tell you? If you want to figuratively stick your head in the sand, that's your perogative, but personally I want to know what the bastards running my life are up to.

If the government is engaging in truly dark and evil things that are ultimately against my interest sure tell me. That kind of thing needs to be exposed.

However what I've seen of the WikiLeaks info isn't dark evil stuff that needs to be exposed. A lot of it is gossip and confidential conversations between the US and other nations. Some of it good (Sweden may not be as neutral as they like everyone to think) some of it "bad" (we may be being pushed into a war in Iran by Saudi Arabia). None of it is something I need to know though.

I've yet to see the big thing that was revealed that had to be known. It all in my opinion falls into the category of things of "Government doing what it needs to do to secure my freedoms and so long as they don't let me know what it is they do then I'm ok".

If instead it was revealed that the US engaged in ethnic cleansing while in Iraq then sure we'd have a case here where I would be upset. But from what I've seen there is no reason I should know or have known. The information shown does more harm than good and does more to endanger the lives of Americans and others than it does to keep the US in check.

And for that I do think Assange deserves to be tried for espionage and should he be found guilty executed.

[Mister Andersen]

(click to show/hide)

"Mr. Speaker, Mr. Vice President, Members of Congress, my fellow Americans... I wish I could be here today under different circumstances. There certainly are a lot of things about this country that we should be discussing, but I realize that's not possible now. As all of you know, my former Chief of Staff has implicated me in a scandal involving First Liberty Savings and Loan, and once people start talking about a scandal its hard to talk about anything else. So fine, let's talk about it. Bob Alexander has accused me of -- let me read this to make sure I get it right: 'Illegally influencing government regulators on behalf of major campaign contributors, interfering with an ongoing justice department investigation, and violating federal election laws in the area of campaign finance.' Okay, let's get right to the guts of it: each one of these charges is absolutely true.

"I'm the president and as they say the buck stops here, so I take full responsibility for every one of my illegal actions. But, you see, that's not the whole story, and I think each one of you here is entitled to the whole truth.

"I have here written proof, in the forms of notes and Miranda and personal directives, proving that Bob Alexander was also involved in each one of these incidences and in most cases planned them as well.

"Now, allegation of wrongdoing have also been made against Vice-president Nance. Now as this evidence will prove at no time and in no way was the Vice-president involved in and of these affairs. Bob just made all that up. Vice-president Nance is a good and decent public servant, and I'd like to apologize for any pain this might have cause him or his family. (They shake hands)

"And while we're on the subject, I'd like to apologize to the American people. You see, I forgot that I was hired to do a job for you, and that was just a temp job at that. I forgot that I had 250 million people who were paying me to make their lives a little but better, and I didn't live up to my part of the bargain.

"You see, I think there are certain things you should expect from your President. I outta care more about you than I do about me. I outta care about more about... I outta care more about what's right than I do about what's popular. I outta be willing to give this whole thing up for something I believe in. Because if I'm not... if I'm not...(staggers, holds his head) if I'm not.... if I'm not than maybe I don't belong here in the first place..." (he falls to the floor)

[glimmerrat]

I do think Assange deserves to be tried for espionage and should he be found guilty executed.

No, i'll never agree with you there. His parents and his son have to watch him receive a lethal injection because he published memos? And that's as bad as a multiple-murderer/rapist pedophile who gets the same sentence? If you give someone the death penalty and turn out to be mistaken, you can't take it back. Its not like just releasing someone from prison.

I hope if he's convicted, his backups publish every dirty little secret in those files. I hope anarchist hackers bring Paypal, PostFinance, Amazon and the Swedish prosecution team to its knees.

[MilitiaJim]

I hope if he's convicted, his backups publish every dirty little secret in those files. I hope anarchist hackers bring Paypal, PostFinance, Amazon and the Swedish prosecution team to its knees.

That is a reasonable possibility.  His "accomplice," Pfc Manning, will be probably be spending a long while at Fort Leavenworth.

Archival Assange

[Morgenstern]

No, i'll never agree with you there. His parents and his son have to watch him receive a lethal injection because he published memos?

Is there really any classification other than "spy" for a person who acquires clearly marked state secrets from a mole and makes them available to another government? That his mole was a idealist with way too much access, and that he threw it out there to all govenments doesn't make him less of a spy in my opinion.

We don't generally shoot spies - we're not actually all that good at killing convicted murderers - but spending the reset of his life behind bars is just about a given if the USA ever gets their hands on him. I should imagine England is just sorting out offers from various quarters to see what's the best deal for them. Nice token in the great game to have sittining one of your cells.

I'm also happy to see some open cyberwar. A few rounds of this and maybe some of the absurd open operation of the web will finally come under scrutiny.

[Nepenthe]

Is there really any classification other than "spy" for a person who acquires clearly marked state secrets from a mole and makes them available to another government?

Objection! The defendant did not make the state secrets available to another government, he released them to the public. The practical difference is vast.

People who release uncomfortable truths to the public have been usually referred to as journalists. Classifying uncomfortable truths because they are uncomfortable shouldn't change this setup.

p.s. Depending on how his extradition procedure progresses, I'm thinking of volunteering for his defense team in Sweden, if I manage to complete my LL.D. before it.

[Krensky]

Is there really any classification other than "spy" for a person who acquires clearly marked state secrets from a mole and makes them available to another government?

Objection! The defendant did not make the state secrets available to another government, he released them to the public. The practical difference is vast.

If it comes to it, the US prosecutor will argue to the grand jury, probably effectively, that there isn't. Whether the trial jury buys it, is admittedly another story.

Then again, it's sort of moot since receiving and retransmitting them are espionage felonies too.

[Nepenthe]

If it comes to it, the US prosecutor will argue to the grand jury, probably effectively, that there isn't. Whether the trial jury buys it, is admittedly another story.

I'd hope not.

Then again, it's sort of moot since receiving and retransmitting them are espionage felonies too.

As they are here, even though I jokingly framed it as such, I wasn't making a legal point.

Of course, in our legal system, for leaking documents to qualify as espionage, there are some requirements to the actual content, simply being classified is not enough. Though I think that "really embarrassing" is one of those requirements, it's just framed in legalese ("harmful to international relations", IIRC)

[MilitiaJim]

The US government classifies enough things that should not be classified that merely possessing "classified" documents is not proof of harm to the US government or the United States.  (Two completely different things.)

Also:  Wikileaks, as an organization, needs to choose better employees/representatives.

[Nepenthe]

I think there's enough dodgy stuff in the rape case that it needs to be viewed with more criticism, than usual. There seems to be a recurring pattern where people decide to drop the case, only to change their minds later. The initial prosecutor of the case decided that there weren't sufficient grounds to pursue a further investigation... only to have the decision overruled by a higher prosecutor (not saying these things don't happen, they just don't happen very often in garden-variety cases like this one). IIRC, there was a similar back-and-forth with issuing the European arrest warrant... and yesterday, the prosecution seemed initially ok with the decision to grant Assange bail, only to reverse their decision a couple of hours later and choosing to appeal it instead.

I'm not saying there is a conspiracy, but some people are sure trying to make it look like one. Also possible that some people in Sweden are just getting a bit too fond of having their names and faces in the papers...

[Crafty_Pat]

Though it's still hearsay at this early stage, word is the FBI has started raiding the homes of alleged Anonymous members allegedly involved in the DDoS attacks on Amazon, PayPal, and credit card companies.

Project: Pitfall would already be wheeling these guys into jail in front of national news crews - but then, they don't need warrants, and they don't generally wait to confirm their suspicions.

[aegis]

The Renseignements Généraux have done the same. They've already raided the home of a 15-years-old hacker allegedly involved in Anonymous and are still trying to trace other "dangerous pirates". Poor France. 

[Morgenstern]

Am I the only one who was left in slack-jawed amazement that one of these hackers was complaining he didn't "have time to thermite his drive"?

It's been weeks, dude. You should have been doing your clean-up that day. You just took a poke at the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT and you left evidence on your drives until the FBI came knocking?

Amateur hour.

[Mister Andersen]

Well, I took that more as an admission there was probably other incriminating material