[World on Fire] Tastes like...mouthwash

[Dace]

Governments do very very bad things...

This is in fact a problem.

I don't see it as one. Mostly since it's a factor of human nature. We'd like to think we are better than that, but the truth is at times we aren't. Governments embody the best and worst of us. And it's bound to do a lot of bad with all it's good.

I'm much happier when I don't know about the bad.

I wish the world worked better but it doesn't. It hasn't and it likely never will.

[MilitiaJim]

Governments are, at their best, necessary evils.  Very Rare is the government that does more necessary than evil.  Rubbing noses in the evil done on your behalf is like making you eat your most hated vegetable.

I've been that guy out there doing violence on your behalf.  You're welcome.  It behooves you to know what is being done and checking to make sure it doesn't get out of hand.

[Dace]

Governments are, at their best, necessary evils.  Very Rare is the government that does more necessary than evil.  Rubbing noses in the evil done on your behalf is like making you eat your most hated vegetable.

I've been that guy out there doing violence on your behalf.  You're welcome.  It behooves you to know what is being done and checking to make sure it doesn't get out of hand.

Yes but in this case the government isn't the one who is rubbing our noses in it. Like I said, I'm much happier when I don't have to know about that bad that we do. And I commend the people who decide to do it. I do not imagine it's an easy job. One that might be fun to role play as but not one I'd like to have.

I think what Assange did was for the most part wrong. While I wasn't able to catch all of what was released there were several bits and pieces that made me go "meh". There were things that I saw that made me think that it was information better left alone. Things that put the lives of others (not just Americans) in danger.

I honestly don't think this was done as an attempt to put a checks and balance on the US espionage activities but was just a careless exposure of the US's dirty laundry for the sake of gaining fame and giving the US a black eye.

And thats fine, but the man has to face what he's done and if that includes being executed for espionage so be it.

[Mister Andersen]

Most of the stuff that's been released so far has been amusingly salacious, but I think has detracted from the site/groups original purpose as a whistleblower. While it's good that hypocrisy is being highlighted, revealing personal opinions is all just so much chaff to exposing actual misdeeds and malfeasance things like the gunship killing the journalists

[Nepenthe]

revealing personal opinions is all just so much chaff to exposing actual misdeeds and malfeasance things like the gunship killing the journalists

Concur.

[Crafty_Alex]

Point of order - Unless Assange hacked US channels, he is not guilty of espionage; the guy(s) feeding him that info is guilty of espionage (and that's a tenuous accusation at best). Was Assange irresponsible? Maybe. Did he put people at risk? Most likely. But a spy? No evidence I've seen says so.

The people, especially the politicians, screeching about assassination are far worse than he is. While I find total transparency ultimately an impediment to getting anything done in politics becuase by its nature politics is based on compromise (as I said, try total transparency with a signficant other and see how that changes things), accountability is essential. There are many instances in the Wikileaks info where accountability has been circumvented, undermined or actively attacked.  As a free people, we should be nervous when governments move away from accountability - because that way lies madness.

[ahzad]

Most of the stuff that's been released so far has been amusingly salacious, but I think has detracted from the site/groups original purpose as a whistleblower. While it's good that hypocrisy is being highlighted, revealing personal opinions is all just so much chaff to exposing actual misdeeds and malfeasance things like the gunship killing the journalists

I would agree as well.

I saw Jon Stewart talking about this and he pretty much said the same thing. These papers as of yet have no pentagon papers style info, or anything akin to all the coups we've helped engineer in central and south america. To paraphrase him we've done a lot more bad things that have come to light, than some diplomatic gossiping, and they've turned this guy into a Lex Luthor style supervillian  rather than a super gossip columnist.

In this day and age when every phone has camera's and recording capabilities all these diplomats should follow the old adage watch what you say.

Which brings me to a side rant. It baffles me to see interviews with politicians and see them say something exactly opposite of something they said in another interview. Hello? You are aware you are being recorded arent' you? All of us aren't as stupid as you'd like to think we are! And no one other than a comedian every has the balls to call them on it. If only we had real journalism again. Koppel had a good piece about the lack of journalistic standards of Fox & MSNBC in the Washington Post. Not everything should be for profit, news is one of those things that used to be about facts, and was an accepted loss leader b/c it was more important that the public knew things other than who won Dancing With the Stars or some other dumb ass thing. You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

[Mister Andersen]

You know, under the auspices of Truth in Advertising laws, I'd like a legal definition of Family Values

[Morgenstern]

I think it slices a little finer than that - if Assange can be shown to have in any way prompted, encouraged, or persuaded PFC Manning to do what he he did, then he'll be at least be charged with espionage. And you have to admit, as a "handler" its a brilliant scheme - he has would-be agents falling all over themselves trying to give him the goods. We have no mechanism to accurately judge what intel was passed to him that he hasn't published. But we do have hints that he hordes secrets for his own use: appearantly Assange did not release all of the documents he recieved in an 'information want's to be free' policy... instead he's using threats to release those held back to bargain for his safety. He is as happy as any govenment to keep his readership in the dark when secrets can give him power.

Wikileaks itself is going to get a pretty harsh examination as a hub from promoting questionably legal activities. Which is sad since it was viewed more as an outlet for whistleblowing until Assange got so full of himself and desperate for attention from the powers that be. Well, he's got their attention now.

[Krensky]

Like most self proclaimed hackers, Assange is a child. He has an adolescent fascination with anarchy and no understanding of the consequences of his actions (he's likely getting people killed, and if he had anything to do with it, he's certainly ended PFC Manning's life).

The whole 'information wants to be free' crowd really needs to actually go read Brand's essays on information technology and ethics.

Oh, and Alex if his claims are true, he is guilty of espionage. He's publicly 'confessed' to violating U.S.C. Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 37, §793 and §798.

While talk of execution is extreme (I'm morally opposed to it, and there are rather specific requirements for the death penalty in the code), he seems to be quite guilty. Of espionage. Don't know about the rape. Don't really care.

[Crafty_Pat]

Well, Anonymous did finally step in - and so far it's (select) small business owners who are paying the price.

[MilitiaJim]

Well, Anonymous did finally step in - and so far it's (select) small business owners who are paying the price.

Given their propensity for screwing the merchants and disliking fraud prevention, I'm not inclined to cry for them.

The fallout from this is not going to be what Assange had in mind, and odds are decent it hurts his cause.

[OverNinja]

It's now a war... WikiLeaks War.

4chan rushes to WikiLeaks' defense, forces Swiss banking site offline.

[glimmerrat]

Governments do very very bad things so that I can enjoy the good life I lead. I sleep much better at night not knowing what it is they do.

Are you implying that you don't care what they do in your name, as long as they don't tell you? If you want to figuratively stick your head in the sand, that's your perogative, but personally I want to know what the bastards running my life are up to.

[Mister Andersen]

So, anyone notice that even though the Swiss warrant for Assange was so they could question him -- interestingly, Swedish prosecutors have rebuffed offers since August for Assange to meet at the Swedish embassy, via video conference and at Scotland Yard -- pretty much every media outlet is reporting him as having been charged with the crimes