Perfect skills, opposed checks, and character concept

[pawsplay]

Depending on your campaign, an Explorer could be...
- A massive Russian, headlocking his enemies into submission.

At level 1, the floor created by Tomb Raider is 21, and at level 10, it's 30. The Explorer gets the same benefit whether he puts in 1 rank of Athletics or 14.

At level 1, a Martial Artist might have Atheletics at 4 ranks and a Strength of 16 of +7, for an average of 17. To reach an average result greater than or equal to an Explorer, the Martial Artist would need both Skill Basics (Athlete) and some increase to maximum ranks, such as Prodigal Skill or some enlightened skill ability. At level 10, we might reasonably expect both, for +21, putting him ahead of the Explorer's average result.

That's a pretty steep hill to climb. Admittedly, the Martial Artist can benefit from action dice, but doesn't get much from an improved threat range from Skill Basics. And there's nothing stopping the Explorer from going the same route. The Explorer is an insanely unbeatable grappler. If that's your schtick, there is little reason to be anything other than an Explorer. And there is really nothing about the Explorer concept that suggests that.

I'm not sure it's a huge problem, but it looks funny to me, and no really good solutions spring to mind.

[Tyralias]

Well, how many times in the Indiana Jones films does he grapple with various people? Its quite a lot and he always comes out on top

[paddyfool]

You can easily become a much better grappler than an explorer if you want to.  Ogre + Path of Strength 1 + Mix up (grapple) is obscene, for instance (I'm playing an Ogre with Path of Strength 1 now.  I haven't taken the mix up trick, partly because I don't want to be unbeatable).

[Psion]

Well, mix-up would only make you unbeatable once out of every 3 rounds. And grapple is one of those things that it helps if you roll it every round, so maybe you really only get to use it once per combat unless, you know, mix it up. 

I have an explorer in my game that is level 10 now and still only has 1 rank in athletics. If he wanted to, he could still probably subdue npcs that only get athletics from competence, but he's still sort of outclassed by npcs with athletics as a signature skill.

Hmmm. Now I want to make up an anaconda (or something like that) as an NPC encounter.

[EloiseCartwright]

With the Ogre, you use Mix-Up to engage (as your size bonus is a penalty then) and then you don't need it once you're in there).

[Typhon]

Yhea, great problem with grapple is that you had better hope there is only ONE bad guy to deal with.
Hasn't happened too many times in the games I've played lol.

[paddyfool]

The other trouble with becoming an uber-grappler, on the other hand, is that where there is one bad guy (or one meaningful bad guy + some mooks) to deal with, it's almost too good (pretty much an "insta-win", especially if the GM was going for the encounter model of "single very dangerous opponent who just stands there and takes whatever you throw at him", unless he equally optimises that opponent for grappling).

[MilitiaJim]

The other trouble with becoming an uber-grappler, on the other hand, is that where there is one bad guy (or one meaningful bad guy + some mooks) to deal with, it's almost too good (pretty much an "insta-win", especially if the GM was going for the encounter model of "single very dangerous opponent who just stands there and takes whatever you throw at him", unless he equally optimises that opponent for grappling).

Every now and then your GM should give your optimized PC a moment to SHINE.  Constantly throwing out guys designed to thwart you is a bit of a dick move.

[Sletchman]

Experience has taught me that my Ogre Martial Artist can beat the party's explorer almost every time in a grapple check.  The only problem with the character was that every enemy started to have Athletics and Acrobatics X, the latter because of Piledriver.  Yeah our explorer could subdue any non-signature skilled NPC with reliability, but after a session or two they disappeared completely.

[pawsplay]

You can easily become a much better grappler than an explorer if you want to.  Ogre + Path of Strength 1 + Mix up (grapple) is obscene, for instance (I'm playing an Ogre with Path of Strength 1 now.  I haven't taken the mix up trick, partly because I don't want to be unbeatable).

So, what about an Explorer with Blessed (Path of Strength) and Mix-up (grapple)? It really seems like, if you wanted to make an exceptional wrestler, aside from whatever else they do, Explorer is probably your brick and mortar. If a new player wanted to make a wrestler, and asked me what would be the most effective class, it would be hard for me to recommend anything other than Explorer. So, wrestlers tend to have lots of friends everywhere they go, and can research really quickly!

[Morgenstern]

Doesn't grappling someone leave you very, very exposed to getting shanked by that somebody's friends?

[Sletchman]

The Explorer doesn't have Acrobatics - a must for Wrestling Supremacy, effectively forcing one of their Origin Skill choices.  They don't get bonus unarmed combat feats - a must to fill out the Wrestling chain, as well as Martial Arts/Masters Art [unless you want to wait til at least 9th level to be great at what you do].  In fact the only useful thing for a wrestler is Uncanny Dodge, because once you take Blessed (Path of Strength) and Mix-Up, and otherwise boost your Athletics check, you won't be using that result floor very often at all.

At 5th level you can hit +20 to Athletics [I've played a character with that], which mean the ability only kicks in 4/20 times, which isn't worth spending 5 class levels on attaining, especially when those 4 times are effectively at best a +4 bonus.

Yes the explorer can grapple, but a master of it they are not.  Martial Artists are far better - they are designed for unarmed beatdown, rather then just having it as a byproduct of the other things they do.

[pawsplay]

The Explorer doesn't have Acrobatics - a must for Wrestling Supremacy, effectively forcing one of their Origin Skill choices.  They don't get bonus unarmed combat feats - a must to fill out the Wrestling chain, as well as Martial Arts/Masters Art [unless you want to wait til at least 9th level to be great at what you do].  In fact the only useful thing for a wrestler is Uncanny Dodge, because once you take Blessed (Path of Strength) and Mix-Up, and otherwise boost your Athletics check, you won't be using that result floor very often at all.

At 5th level you can hit +20 to Athletics [I've played a character with that], which mean the ability only kicks in 4/20 times, which isn't worth spending 5 class levels on attaining, especially when those 4 times are effectively at best a +4 bonus.

Yes the explorer can grapple, but a master of it they are not.  Martial Artists are far better - they are designed for unarmed beatdown, rather then just having it as a byproduct of the other things they do.

Ok, I am now convinced that a character with Blessed (Path of Strength) is a viable contender against the Explorer, but not a straight up Martial Artist.

[Sletchman]

The Martial Artist will have higher reach, ploys such as +4 to trip, and is able to have Wrestling B/M/S and Martial / Masters Art by level 3 - significantly earlier then the Exporer.  He has the feats to spare to be able to get Blessed, but if for some reason he doesn't [campaign setting and such] he can use his level feats to get skill mastery and prodigal skill - grabbing the combat feats as bonuses.

Result floors become less impressive as you level - you get far more resources that can boost raw skill bonus then you do get levels.  Result floor only gains +1 per level - skill checks can go up in leaps, either through feats, magic items, stat gain, or other things that all add to the check.  If you want I can throw together some example numbers, but the math is pretty easy to see.

I'm not knocking the Explorer, it has been a favourite of mine since 2.0's release.  I'm just saying that reliable grappling is a fringe benefit - not the Explorer walking around with a "win button" that breaks the game.

[pawsplay]

The Martial Artist will have higher reach, ploys such as +4 to trip, and is able to have Wrestling B/M/S and Martial / Masters Art by level 3 - significantly earlier then the Exporer.  He has the feats to spare to be able to get Blessed, but if for some reason he doesn't [campaign setting and such] he can use his level feats to get skill mastery and prodigal skill - grabbing the combat feats as bonuses.

Result floors become less impressive as you level - you get far more resources that can boost raw skill bonus then you do get levels.  Result floor only gains +1 per level - skill checks can go up in leaps, either through feats, magic items, stat gain, or other things that all add to the check.  If you want I can throw together some example numbers, but the math is pretty easy to see.

I'm not knocking the Explorer, it has been a favourite of mine since 2.0's release.  I'm just saying that reliable grappling is a fringe benefit - not the Explorer walking around with a "win button" that breaks the game.

It looks like a Martial Artist who throws all his resources at it can barely exceed an Explorer with 1 rank in Athletics in general ability.