Computers Skill in SC3

[Agent 333]

That's what I was talking about. Specialty, yes. Feats, certainly a chain or two. But before anything, strong rules for computer accessing/searching/programming/cracking and of course ... dramatic conflicts!

I'm not certain that hacking is really that dramatic of a conflict. Depends on how realistic you want it. In real life, it's actually kinda boring, and it turns out the best way to gain access to an enemy's computer systems isn't hacking it from the outside but good old fashioned spy work. The weakest link in most security systems is the human component. It's far easier to find someone in the organization who's lax with password security than it is to brute force your way in. Especially since an intruder is (relatively) easy to detect and kick, while someone who looks like a legitimate user can get away with a lot more.

[Desertpuma]

I can see the Hacker as an ExC. Pat and I had this discussion once where people to identify the name of the class as what the class does. Wheelman has the same problem. Most players never thought beyond that idea which created problems.

The Hacker can be much more the computer guy. He's the investigator, the forgery guy, the electronics guy, the gadget guy, etc. Some people refused to think outside the box.

As for Dramatic Conflicts, well, they do pose a problem. Any game where the situation becomes paralyzed because one PC has to go off and obtain some vital component to the story alone.

SC: Wheelman tailin', Hacker hackin'
Rigger: running drones
Cyberpunk: Netrunner hackin'

These are the ones I know of but these are the ones I know of. In some cases, another party member would have to stick around to make sure the Netrunner did  not get jacked up by anyone. Riggers had the same problem as someone could take off in the vehicle they were set up in if necessary.

[Regularguy]

I can see the Hacker as an ExC. Pat and I had this discussion once where people to identify the name of the class as what the class does. Wheelman has the same problem. Most players never thought beyond that idea which created problems.

The Hacker can be much more the computer guy. He's the investigator, the forgery guy, the electronics guy, the gadget guy, etc. Some people refused to think outside the box.

Heh.  It's almost like you're saying we don't need to rebuild the Hacker and Wheelman, or switch each from base class to ExC, or jettison 'em altogether; it's just about coming up with different names!

[Crafty_Pat]

I can see the Hacker as an ExC. Pat and I had this discussion once where people to identify the name of the class as what the class does. Wheelman has the same problem. Most players never thought beyond that idea which created problems.

The Hacker can be much more the computer guy. He's the investigator, the forgery guy, the electronics guy, the gadget guy, etc. Some people refused to think outside the box.

Heh.  It's almost like you're saying we don't need to rebuild the Hacker and Wheelman, or switch each from base class to ExC, or jettison 'em altogether; it's just about coming up with different names!

Not quite - and note that this is just one of many issues surrounding these classes, so there isn't an easy fix. This issue revolves around the names having mandated those particular design choices, which in play are causing many of the problems discussed at length here on the boards. Call it a self-fulfilling design prophesy, or just poor simulationism. Regardless, it's not working as presented to date.

[mathey]

Hacking can be very exciting in a roleplaying game, provided its tied to the same things that make a fight or a car chase exciting.

The first time I was introduced to hacking of any kind, actually, it was in a context that can work quite well; the whole cyberpunk cliche of the matrix dude who hacks/decks/whatever from a remote locale while the rest of the team physically infiltrates a particular location. The hacker would mess with the security and other wired building features to make things easier for the intrusion team, also providing recon and perhaps exposition on the data they were getting. The intrusion team would simultaneously (or as nearly simultaneously as the particular game system could manage) sneak around, shoot/punch/disable guards, and get at the physical item or person tied to their particular mission.

I can't count the number of times I'd run or played in layered infiltration scenarios like that; Shadowrun and Cyberpunk 2020 both featured it, with the former adding another layer with the whole astral planar stuff the mages could do. I imagine that most gamers' idea of what hackers are supposed to do is as much influence or informed by that formula/set piece as by anything in the real world or in popular media depictions. As for how well those and other games executed the parallel infiltration and disabling of security, it was all over the map and could vary with edition and rules supplements. Some times it was tense, fun, and inclusive. Other times it was a jumbled, confusing mess - or, worst of wall, just plain tedious and boring.

The logistics of the specific scenario, the skill sets of the players and their characters, and the attitude or preparations of the GM could all have an impact, too, regardless of what the game mechanics had to say for it.

I suppose this ties back into discussions about how much a game system is meant to be a simulation of "real" heists or social engineering and how much its meant to be an emulation of what such scenarios feel like to audience members in a fictional depiction.

[Agent 333]

There are a few problems with the scenario: First, one of the players is "sitting in the van", not really interacting with the rest of the characters. Second, if for some reason they're infiltrating a place that's less reliant on technology, the hacker doesn't have much to do. Third, if there weren't a hacker, the adventure would go more or less the same: It might be slightly more difficult, but it'll take far less in game time, and the GM won't have to worry about designing a computer security specialist just to challenge the hacker.
Characters like the Hacker and Wheelman steal time for themselves, under perform when they aren't in the spotlight, and generally just walk over opposition that isn't carefully crafted to counter them in their specific field. These are all huge problems from an RPG standpoint.

[Desertpuma]

The first time I was introduced to hacking of any kind, actually, it was in a context that can work quite well; the whole cyberpunk cliche of the matrix dude who hacks/decks/whatever from a remote locale while the rest of the team physically infiltrates a particular location. The hacker would mess with the security and other wired building features to make things easier for the intrusion team, also providing recon and perhaps exposition on the data they were getting. The intrusion team would simultaneously (or as nearly simultaneously as the particular game system could manage) sneak around, shoot/punch/disable guards, and get at the physical item or person tied to their particular mission.

Having both played and run Cyberpunk consistently for over 10 years, above is an idealized situation. More often than not, I NPC'd the Netrunner in my home games.

[Catodon]

Anyone looked at how both hacking and remote action are handled in first edition Blueplanet? Having both near-future technology and dolphin PCs this game had to get this right. The sum of the bag of tricks used is that hacking is integrated. A mix of computer and physical work is needed to infiltrate a computer system and the dolphin in the van can have a physical presence through remote drones, comm systems etc.

[pawsplay]

While I largely with agree with you all that computers are a tool rather than an activity, and that "good computer use" spans multiple activities, our time in the wild with SC2.0 has taught us people did not understand the application of that game's Computer skill without the abilty to use computers for research. The main issue I personally took away was that people did not understand why a "social" skill like Investigation also covered computer research, when Computers didn't.

I see. Sort of. Of course, computer cracking is very much a social activity; getting pasccodes or schematics often involves "social engineering."

Let me flesh out my viewpoint somewhat. The Hacker should be an Investigate master. Obviously, he has, at his fingertips, the modern-day Library of Alexandria, plus the ability to search criminal record databases, peoplesearches, drunkfail images sites, etc. But beyond that, archetypally, the Hacker is adept at solving cyphers and puzzles, getting into places others don't, and analyzing things from a hacker standpoint. If you were watching a movie, the hacker wouldn't just announce he obtained a file, he would gloat about his find and explain things about it that he indicated its value. I see the Hacker as kin to the FC Keeper. Bright idea seems like a Hacker thing. So right off the bat, I might steal bright idea, plus the 21st century version of bookworm. He would have some kind of enhanced Investigate and Crafting abilities, whether a perfect skill or an action die bonus or whatever. He would have menu choices, much like a Soldier or Courtier, but instead of being based on different weapon specialities or types of social maneuver, it would be based on different computer-using tasks or computer equipment specialties or (yes) social engineering. For enhancing his Investigate capabilities, I would consider looking at the Captain's take command ability as a model; increase the ceiling by +1, and add some bonus to X that a hacker using a computer would need. Perhaps the Hacker makes heavy use of codes/apps that degrade in usefuless after a few uses, and the Hacker is able to give them bonuses to saves.

The Hacker would have a sort of kit in the form of a hacking computer. It would allow the Investigate skill to be used remotely and might reduce time/costs. Maybe that kind of Investigate is defined as a feat, and Hackers get Cyber Basics as their first level ability. What can a hacker do? They can do intrusions (Girl with the Dragon Tattoo). They can also take over systems and jury-rig solutions for physical security using electronic crafting (War Games). They can write new software and analyze puzzles (Transformers, Independence Day). They can establish virtual empires (Cowboy Bebop).

So... I can see the Hacker as a base class. Not as "the computer nerd" but as the information specialist class, in much the same way a Soldier is the combat hayhem class and a Burglar is a physical intrusion class. If it doesn't fly as a Base Class, there's certainly the potential as an Expert class, in the mode of the Gallant or Alchemist, who fuses a couple of different ability sets in the pursuit of a very specific type of activity.

The alternative to hacking as a class is a Cyber Basics -> Mastery -> Supremacy chain, along the lines of what I was saying above, which can then be overlaid onto a modern Keeper or Scientist, a Sleuth, Face, etc. In that case you might need a second, even third set of feats for hacking activities that do not pertain to solving puzzles, cracking codes, or obtaining information. A Phreaking/Cracking/Electronic Intrusion type chain would be cool, plus a maybe another set for seizing command of computer systems overtly. Overriding a system is really a lot like grappling and pinning, or perhaps similar to a charm effect. that's where you get into some sticky issues of "what skill do I use?" though at that point, it's really a balance question. Crafting has the advantage of having foci, being involved in overt actions, and also already covering juryrigging.

If you were going to create a Computer/Technology skill, I would think of it as akin to the Spellcasting skill. It would be involved in wizardry like taking over systems, analyzing systems, etc. But it would only be a proxy for information gathering; the DC would be for creating the "link" to the information you wanted to research. Apart from being a very abstract concept, I think it makes the whole thing complex. Really, I think research checks should be research checks, and a lot of modern research would just be anachronistic without extensive use of computers to do so.

[Crafty_Alex]

Paws - you're right on in many, many levels. Phone phreaks were the original hackers, like Mitnick, and I agree someone who's good at hacking will be necessity be good with Investigation, and that Research checks should be Research checks. I didn't see the problems with the skill splits in 2.0 (I mean, after all, I was one of the three designers!) but a lot of people didn't seem to get it in the way we wanted. Part of that may simply be the fact we had a Computers skill at all - Science (Programming) and Electronics could have largely handled all non-research related computer activities anyway, save for a Hacking dCon. What you learn with 6 years' more life experience and hindsight

Where I don't agree is that the Hacker should be a base class. I DO agree there should be a very strong Investigation oriented class, but I would never call that class a Hacker. Hacking is a method, not a career. Hell, the strongest modern hacker style character I've seen in Lisabeth Salander from The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo and she spends the vast majority of her time doing non-hacky stuff, even investigations - digging through library stacks, conducting surveillance, trailing Nazis, etc. She fits the Snoop archetype much more closely - she just has a particular method she is highly skilled with and exploits to its fullest. An Expert Class is more in line with my current thinking, due to the narrower focus, but I would not even call that a done deal yet. Feats and a specialty oriented towards being good with computers seems a virtual lock, but it's a tough call at this point.

[Crafty_Pat]

One of the divides I see here is between cerebral (internal) research and interpersonal (external) research. I would wager that in popular media hackers who run very hot with the former stumble all over themselves with the latter. I expect we'll be looking for ways to split those activities into two different activities/skills, which runs counter to what we currently have with Investigate. There's a solution, of course, but flatly saying that computer specialists should automatically gain the full benefits of the current Investigate skill ain't it.

[Mister Andersen]

While the simplest would be using different attributes to make the check depending on the situation, the most logical from the stand point of not pissing off players who want a small total skill list is to introduce focii: SIGINT, HUMINT, etc

[pawsplay]

There's a solution, of course, but flatly saying that computer specialists should automatically gain the full benefits of the current Investigate skill ain't it.

If by computer specialist, you mean an operator, sure. But if you're talking about someone who can hack into the White House and check the President's voice mail, i'm not sure what they couldn't find or figure out, given enough time.

[Desertpuma]

In regards to the first two films and all three books (which I've read), she is much more of a Researcher who investigates more through than the computer than you realize. She hacks other people's computers all the time through a program she uses including Blomquist's particularly in the 2nd film. In the 3rd book, she does research while she is laying in a hospital bed, with a gunshot wound to the head, on a computer. The films are excellent and the Swedish director followed the books very very closely.

Do I think the Hacker should be an Expert Class? Absolutely!! It might not carry that title. I forget which supplement for SC2 it was I believe Runner existed as an Expert Class then. It might be worth while to see how things combined.

[Nepenthe]

In regards to the first two films and all three books (which I've read), she is much more of a Researcher who investigates more through than the computer than you realize. She hacks other people's computers all the time through a program she uses including Blomquist's particularly in the 2nd film. In the 3rd book, she does research while she is laying in a hospital bed, with a gunshot wound to the head, on a computer. The films are excellent and the Swedish director followed the books very very closely.

Is it just me or did you get Salander involved in a very oblique way?