Undead and Subdual

[Sicktabou]

Mmmm...

Undeads, including Skeletons, are immune to subdual damage. That make sense as they can't be stunned to knocked unconscious.

But it also means that a soldier with  a MAUL must take -4 to hit and will only do 1/2 damage.

Is this right?

It must be my preconception from my D&D years, but I always visualized skellies to explode when hit by a bludgeoning weapon.

Same thing with the whole breaking thing issue. Objects are immune to subdual damage. Now the Maul would only hope to do 1/2 damage to an object? And when gaining the HAMMER MASTERY feat you essentially do "normal" damage to objects?

What am I missing?

[mach1.9pants]

I think this is in the v2 printing thread, have a search and standby for clarification along the lines of 'if it makes sense subdual damage can effect objects and skelingtons have an allergic to hammers feature'

EDIT: haven't you done this before???

http://www.crafty-games.com/forum/index.php?topic=4172.0

[ArawnNox]

EDIT: haven't you done this before???

Yeah, didn't we already argue this point to death?

[Crafty_Pat]

Here's the errata that was generated last time around...

The first bullet of Subdual Damage becomes: “Certain sources of subdual damage logically damage objects. The GM decides which sources make sense on a case-by-case basis. Hammers should damage windows, for example, even when they inflict subdual damage. Fists, however, are probably - though not always - useless against steel doors.”

The Skeletal template gains the Achilles’ heel (blunt) quality.

[Sicktabou]

EDIT: haven't you done this before???

Oh very true. I need more sleep.

Thanks for the answer.

[Sicktabou]

The Skeletal template gains the Achilles’ heel (blunt) quality.

Just to be clear...

It means that a Skeleton hit by a Maul (again...sorry) for 8 sub damage would actually suffer 0 sub + 8 Lethal...right?

But if the character takes the -4 to hit to transform the Maul damage in lethal, the skelly would actually suffer 4 lethal + 8 Lethal for a total of 12 lethal. Right? 

[mach1.9pants]

Here's the errata that was generated last time around...

The first bullet of Subdual Damage becomes: “Certain sources of subdual damage logically damage objects. The GM decides which sources make sense on a case-by-case basis. Hammers should damage windows, for example, even when they inflict subdual damage. Fists, however, are probably - though not always - useless against steel doors.”

The Skeletal template gains the Achilles’ heel (blunt) quality.

I think mine is better, I am happy for you to use it in the errata/update. Just put my name on the cover in front of yours :p

'if it makes sense subdual damage can effect objects and skelingtons have an allergic to hammers feature'

[Grimace]

EDIT: haven't you done this before???

Yeah, didn't we already argue this point to death?

It's not dead yet.  It's feeling much better.  ;p

[Crafty_Alex]

The Skeletal template gains the Achilles’ heel (blunt) quality.

Just to be clear...

It means that a Skeleton hit by a Maul (again...sorry) for 8 sub damage would actually suffer 0 sub + 8 Lethal...right?

But if the character takes the -4 to hit to transform the Maul damage in lethal, the skelly would actually suffer 4 lethal + 8 Lethal for a total of 12 lethal. Right? 

Correct on the first count; on the second, you'd be inflicting 4 lethal damage, so Achilles would also inflict 4 more lethal damage, not increasing your total. Better to bash without conversion

In the case of the mace, there's also the AP 4 which will reduce the skeleton's Damage Save as well.

[Desertpuma]

Hence why maces & morningstars were some of the more fearsome weapons in the Middle Ages.

[LHG]

The Skeletal template gains the Achilles’ heel (blunt) quality.

Just to be clear...

It means that a Skeleton hit by a Maul (again...sorry) for 8 sub damage would actually suffer 0 sub + 8 Lethal...right?

But if the character takes the -4 to hit to transform the Maul damage in lethal, the skelly would actually suffer 4 lethal + 8 Lethal for a total of 12 lethal. Right? 

Correct on the first count; on the second, you'd be inflicting 4 lethal damage, so Achilles would also inflict 4 more lethal damage, not increasing your total. Better to bash without conversion

In the case of the mace, there's also the AP 4 which will reduce the skeleton's Damage Save as well.

I don't understand the reference to AP 4 reducing the skeleton's Damage Save.  I thought AP just reduced its damage reduction for that blow.  Am I misunderstanding something, or did I miss something, completely?

[Crafty_Alex]

I don't understand the reference to AP 4 reducing the skeleton's Damage Save.  I thought AP just reduced its damage reduction for that blow.  Am I misunderstanding something, or did I miss something, completely?

No, I'm a dumbass...I was thinking of objects. AP works against undead characters as normal (punching through armor), while against objects which do not have a hardness or other DR stat, AP is added to the damage results used to determine the damage save.

[LHG]

Ah.  Thank you.  I'm new enough with Fantasy Craft that I still discover a new rule or use of a rule nearly every time I look at these forums.  I thought that might be the case, here.  In fact, I didn't realize AP was added to the damage results for objects, so I guess it is. 

[Crafty_Pat]

Here's the errata that was generated last time around...

The first bullet of Subdual Damage becomes: “Certain sources of subdual damage logically damage objects. The GM decides which sources make sense on a case-by-case basis. Hammers should damage windows, for example, even when they inflict subdual damage. Fists, however, are probably - though not always - useless against steel doors.”

The Skeletal template gains the Achilles’ heel (blunt) quality.

I think mine is better, I am happy for you to use it in the errata/update. Just put my name on the cover in front of yours :p

'if it makes sense subdual damage can effect objects and skelingtons have an allergic to hammers feature'

How about a watermark with, say, 0.00001% opacity? That work for ya? It could go on every page... 

[mach1.9pants]

LOL that would be awesome, like a subliminal message!