Trip and Grapple overpowered?

[Grimace]

I've seen threads discussing trip, but none seem to discuss them being overpowered.

Trip

IMO –Trip is way overpowered and has been since at least 3.5 D20.  

• It’s way too easy to perform.  NPC’s without the Acrobatics skill are very susceptible to trip attacks.
• The effects of a successful trip leave a target open to massive damage.

Let’s look at a level 1 Soldier

Applicable Skills: Athletics – 7 (4 + 3 (Str)), Acrobatics (Origin) – 6 (4 + 2 (Dex))
Feats: Knife Basics, Darting Weapon.
Stance:  Wicked Dance (Stance): Your 1-handed melee attacks inflict 2 additional dice of sneak attack damage. You may not take move actions (though you may still take 5-ft. Bonus Steps as normal).
Applicable Proficiencies/Trick:  Edge (Forte), Salt the Wound
Weapon:  Long Sword with bleeding quality 1d12+3 damage, Atk: 5

• First combat round:  Trip, Attack, Attack.  Potential damage = 2d12 + 4d6 + 6 (12-54) with two hits.
• Second combat round (assuming hit in first round and bleeding):  Trip, Attack, Attack.  Potential damage = 2d12 + 6d6 +6 (14-66) with two hits.

Grapple

Also, Grapple is somewhat overpowered.

• It’s way too easy to perform.  NPC’s without the Athletics skill are very susceptible to grapple attacks.
• Three rounds and any NPC can be dead.

Same soldier as above.

• First combat round: Grapple (held)
  
• Second combat round (assuming successful grapple held):  Grapple (Pinned), bound as a free action.
• Third combat round:  Coup De Grace, Inflict an automatic critical hit for 1d12 + 2d6 + 3 (6-25), make fortitude save DC 16-35 or die.

Suggested changes to tone down trip and grapple attacks.

Roll a melee or unarmed attack check.  If it’s successful, instead of damage they can make an opposing athletics or acrobatics roll is made with for the grapple/trip.  Upon success, you grapple or trip as normal.  Not sure how else to balance these actions.

[Grimace]

BTW..

Can-o-worms = Opened.   

[Goodlun]

Suggested changes to tone down trip and grapple attacks.

Roll a melee or unarmed attack check.  If it’s successful, instead of damage they can make an opposing athletics or acrobatics roll is made with for the grapple/trip.  Upon success, you grapple or trip as normal.  Not sure how else to balance these actions.

I have problems with the roll a Melee attack concept. 
1 for a real world reason.  As a judoka I can tie up a boxer/kick boxer what ever all day long I rely on a different set of skills than they do.  As me to hit some with a sword/stick my fist what ever and my odds go way down.
2nd in the game(and this is an even bigger reason)
Is that Classes like the courtier are still combat effective if they choice to grapple.  This to me is a KEY part of the combat balancing for the classes that are not a solider. 

So yes in your your example you have a Solider excelling at what he is suppose to do be a combat monster chewing through foes it is what he does, it is what he is good at. 

[Goodlun]

also don't forget that the NPCs competence does cover Acorbatics and all the other combat skills and that should be at a reasonable level.  Yes the soldier that specializes in trips and grapples is going to be very successful against people who do not.  That is the point of specialization.

[MDL]

Well, for one thing, your first example is either missing key details, or it just doesn't work that way.

It implies that the soldier was allowed to already be in the Wicked Dance stance at the start of combat, since you ignore the half action it takes to get into the stance.

Half action to pop into stance, half action to trip.  Opponent then gets their turn, stand up for the first action, and either stand and fight, or back off with a move action.  If the opponent moves, the soldier dropping into stance becomes a completely wasted action due to the 5-foot step as only movement limitation of the stance.

Really, trip is typically spending  a half action to waste one half action of the opponent, and give them some temporary penalties until their next action.

Most melee fighter characters should probably spend at least some points on Acrobatics, it's true, but it's more along the lines of 'toss in only to one half max ranks just to keep opponents from having a guaranteed trip versus you' unless you really want to specialize that way.  For non-melee centric characters, you'd want to be keeping away from people anyway, so this is a bit of a null issue for them.

Grapple is even more situational than trip.  Yes, you have a theoretical three round to coup-de-grace setup.  However, for those three rounds the character that starts the grapple is incredibly vulnerable to any allies of his target.  Grappling is great when you have a numerical advantage, strong when the numbers on each side are even... and winds up having some significant drawbacks if the opposing side outnumbers your side.

[Grimace]

I have problems with the roll a Melee attack concept. 
1 for a real world reason.  As a judoka I can tie up a boxer/kick boxer what ever all day long I rely on a different set of skills than they do.  As me to hit some with a sword/stick my fist what ever and my odds go way down.
2nd in the game(and this is an even bigger reason)
Is that Classes like the courtier are still combat effective if they choice to grapple.  This to me is a KEY part of the combat balancing for the classes that are not a solider. 

So yes in your your example you have a Solider excelling at what he is suppose to do be a combat monster chewing through foes it is what he does, it is what he is good at. 

I would think you'd have to get past their defense before connecting with the trip or before you are able to grab them.  Then depending on how good you are with your athletics/acrobatics, depends on how successful you are at trip/grapple.

[Sletchman]

I was under the impression that being attacked made you lose flat footed status?  This will reduce your combo's damage slightly.

That said, your example level 1 soldier has invested a Proficiency, one of his only two origin skills, and several skill points [soldiers have these in limited quanities too] and two feats, leaving him with only his origin feat open.  With this level of investiment, a character had better be bloody good at doing what you're investing in.

I completely disagree about grappling being over powered.  The most important thing is that while grappling is very powerful, you are grappling, and nothing else.  That knife basics you guy listed before can stab you with impunity, his mates can gang up on you.  You are SOL because all you can do is make those grappling checks.  Further, that three round coup de grace* you listed requires three feats - as above, you invest three feats into something, you should be really good at whatever it is.  Just as Fencing Supremacy has a "lower dex fails damage save", Wrestling Supremacy has this.  If it is overpowered for your games, just change it to "a standard character fails their damage save".

*Where did the damage calculations for that come from?  You can't be in a stance, so Wicked Dance ain't giving you sneak attack, which puts you at 1d12+3 [and a much lower DC to avoid instant death].

That all said, I know these aren't overpowered options purely because my players don't use them.  In DnD, I didn't get to play in a single game that didn't include "the tripper" or "the grappler", because the options were too good.  The fact that it doesn't pop up in FC, which I play just as often as I did DnD, if not more so is evidence that my groups number crunchers have seen it as a clear advantage.

Goodlun wrote my exact thoughts for why I don't like the attack bonus option.

[Deral]

Without something to compare it to, just saying Trip is overpowered doesn't make much of a point. In the first example that soldier can get the same damage for fewer feats (or more with the same number) simply by having someone flank with him, what benefit he'd get attacking a sprawled NPC is countered by the flanking bonus (or more if he spends that Darting weapon feat on say, Wolf Pack Basics), it sounds like this argument is less "Trip is overpowered" and more "Sneak Attack damage is overpowered."

As far as the grapple goes, you run into the same problem, that soldier just took 3 full rounds to kill someone, not including walking up to the opponent or possibly failing a grapple check, that's 6 half actions, the other soldier could have made 9 attacks by that point (something like 108-486 damage, assuming the attacks hit and he can maintain a flanker, using your numbers, not counting bleeding d4's) Soldiers don't take 3 full rounds to kill things, they take a round, if they feel like drawing it out.

[Grimace]

Well, for one thing, your first example is either missing key details, or it just doesn't work that way.

It implies that the soldier was allowed to already be in the Wicked Dance stance at the start of combat, since you ignore the half action it takes to get into the stance.

Half action to pop into stance, half action to trip.  Opponent then gets their turn, stand up for the first action, and either stand and fight, or back off with a move action.  If the opponent moves, the soldier dropping into stance becomes a completely wasted action due to the 5-foot step as only movement limitation of the stance.

Really, trip is typically spending  a half action to waste one half action of the opponent, and give them some temporary penalties until their next action.

Most melee fighter characters should probably spend at least some points on Acrobatics, it's true, but it's more along the lines of 'toss in only to one half max ranks just to keep opponents from having a guaranteed trip versus you' unless you really want to specialize that way.  For non-melee centric characters, you'd want to be keeping away from people anyway, so this is a bit of a null issue for them.

Grapple is even more situational than trip.  Yes, you have a theoretical three round to coup-de-grace setup.  However, for those three rounds the character that starts the grapple is incredibly vulnerable to any allies of his target.  Grappling is great when you have a numerical advantage, strong when the numbers on each side are even... and winds up having some significant drawbacks if the opposing side outnumbers your side.

Good catch on the stance taking 1/2 action to get into.  And an opponent can always move away, but this could drag combat out and frustrate both GM and Player.

The biggest issue is that the GM will have to come up with NPC's that combat a certain strategy that a PC decides to take.  I'm not looking to totally negate the strategy, just make it more reasonable.

Grapple is not as overpowered as the trip is, but it's also open to being abused.  Once you pin a NPC you can use them as a shield and any allies of the NPC could be doing more damage than good.

[Sletchman]

Good catch on the stance taking 1/2 action to get into.  And an opponent can always move away, but this could drag combat out and frustrate both GM and Player.

The biggest issue is that the GM will have to come up with NPC's that combat a certain strategy that a PC decides to take.  I'm not looking to totally negate the strategy, just make it more reasonable.

If someone gets famous for a combo of Trip-Stab-Stab-Stab [which cinematically is a beautiful visual] then why wouldn't the enemies want to back away?  Once the players have some renown, his fighting stance becomes well recognised, and the enemies back away to avoid being the next to be stabbed to death while laying helpless on their back like a turtle.  I'm not saying don't let the player do what he's invested in doing [I'm the biggest advocate of letting players do what they build their characters to do], I'm just saying for intelligent and educated creatures, maybe back up and throw some javelins - let the player shine, don't let them rely on a combo.

Also enemies who can charge and grapple, or charge and trip.  Tripping breaks the stance - so the player with this hypothetical setup has to get up and regain the stance, otherwise it's only class sneak attack [which soldiers don't get].

[Goodlun]

I would think you'd have to get past their defense before connecting with the trip or before you are able to grab them.  Then depending on how good you are with your athletics/acrobatics, depends on how successful you are at trip/grapple.

Their is a HUGE difference in defense from a crisp double leg take down and a strike.

[Grimace]

I was under the impression that being attacked made you lose flat footed status?  This will reduce your combo's damage slightly.

Not if the target is sprawled, which tripping does.  The only way to become not flat-footed is to reposition.  So a sprawled NPC is flat-footed even after they are attacked.

That said, your example level 1 soldier has invested a Proficiency, one of his only two origin skills, and several skill points [soldiers have these in limited quanities too] and two feats, leaving him with only his origin feat open.  With this level of investiment, a character had better be bloody good at doing what you're investing in.

Oh a fighter is pretty much meant to soak up and deal damage.  He's invested 3 of his proficiencies, one of the two origin skills and 8 of his starting skill points (roughly 1/2 their skill points).  The character still has their talent and specialty and 3 more proficiencies.  Yes they are somewhat specialized, but only slightly more than your typical soldier.

I completely disagree about grappling being over powered.  The most important thing is that while grappling is very powerful, you are grappling, and nothing else.  That knife basics you guy listed before can stab you with impunity, his mates can gang up on you.  You are SOL because all you can do is make those grappling checks.  Further, that three round coup de grace* you listed requires three feats - as above, you invest three feats into something, you should be really good at whatever it is.  Just as Fencing Supremacy has a "lower dex fails damage save", Wrestling Supremacy has this.  If it is overpowered for your games, just change it to "a standard character fails their damage save".

 

Where did you get you need 3 feats for a 3 round Coup De Grace?  Grapple once = Held, Grapple twice = Pinned, Pinned gives you a free bound, Coup De Grace.  Now you could get feats to make the Coup De Grace a half action.  

*Where did the damage calculations for that come from?  You can't be in a stance, so Wicked Dance ain't giving you sneak attack, which puts you at 1d12+3 [and a much lower DC to avoid instant death].

Ok, I don't see where you cannot be in a stance while grappling, granted this takes it to a 4 round Coup De Grace because you have to enter the stance.  Which again can be defeated by the target moving away from you.  Maybe I'm missing something about the stances.  If in fact you cannot be in a stance your death save is DC 14-25.  

That all said, I know these aren't overpowered options purely because my players don't use them.  In DnD, I didn't get to play in a single game that didn't include "the tripper" or "the grappler", because the options were too good.  The fact that it doesn't pop up in FC, which I play just as often as I did DnD, if not more so is evidence that my groups number crunchers have seen it as a clear advantage.

Perhaps you don't play with many min/maxers.  In 75% of the non-convention 3.5 D&D games I've been in there's been a tripper.   Conventions typically have pre-generated characters in the games I've had.  So far 100% of the non-convention FC games have had a tripper.   Granted we've only had 2 non-convention games.  That's a low number and is the same player is the tripper.  

[Grimace]

Tripping breaks the stance - so the player with this hypothetical setup has to get up and regain the stance, otherwise it's only class sneak attack [which soldiers don't get].

I'm trying to find where it states that tripping breaks the stance.  

Is this what you are referring to?
Pg. 204

Characters not using a stance ability are considered to be in the ‘normal stance,’ which offers no special benefits or modifiers.

If this is the case trip is an attack action, not a 1 handed melee attack, and thus you lose the stance?  Doesn't this just mean you do not get the bonus for that action, you are still in the stance?

[ArawnNox]

Don't forget that Darting Weapon is an initiative action that penalizes attacks and skill checks for the entire round until your next initiative count. Which means those attacks AND trips are penalized by -2.
If trips are really such a problem, start tossing out some NPCs with Improved Stability and/or Acrobatics as a Signature Skill. I think its great to give players simple and effective options in combat to break the "attack attack" monotony. Also, consider giving stronger NPCs Burst of Speed so they can get back on their feet quicker.

On to grappleing. Pre-errata, yes, it is very powerful. The Drake in my Darkest Hour game totally neutralized Wiltweevil and Master (thanks to the Truely Massive feat). Now, with it first being vs Acrobatics, THEN vs Athletics, and the size bonuses being cut in half, I don't think it's going to be such a problem. I mean, after all, if a player wants to be awesome at grappelling, why should you penalize them? Give them challenges, sure, but don't make them feel like their character choices were worthless.

Instead of building walls against their strong points, try targeting their weaknesses. All that specialization is going to leave you weak somewhere.

In addition. Tripping is a skill check, since it's a Skill vs. Skill roll. I'm not sure where loosing the stance for tripping comes in. If you GET sprawled, you loose your stance... unless you loose the stance when you become flat footed if your trip fails, but I'm not sure.

[Grimace]

Again, I don't want to stop a character from using this stance, but I just cannot see your typical NPC being able to get into melee with a character specialized in this way.  

So I either craft NPCs to have the skill needed to roll against this or I keep the NPC's at range.

I'm looking for answers on how to not trivialize combat encounters in such situations, while allowing the players to continue the strategy.