Dungeon Crawl

[Desertpuma]

So to satisfy without overwhelming your players give general descriptions but have written down the details so if they make an inquiry about something.

Example:
GC: You've entered a large room, certainly larger than the 20' x 20' rooms you've seen so far. Large enough to have decorated columns running in two rows down the center of the room.

Player: What are the decorations on the columns?

GC: Some kind of bas-relief depicting images of what looks to be a battle of some kind.

In addition, the players do not have to finish a dungeon in one fell swoop. As a matter of fact, sometimes it is better to retreat with what you can carry and come back later. Thus, this gives them a second reason to make a map so they know what they've been through in the dungeon and can guess at what they might have missed. It brings up the idea of coming back with some more hirelings or henchmen to help them tackle obstacles deeper into the dungeon as well.

[Gentry]

I've played in campaigns where mapping was a precision exercise, and we asked exhaustive questions about dimensions and measurements. I've also played in campaigns where our map looked like it was from King's Quest: squares labeled "great hall" and "barracks" connected by simple straight lines indicating access from one to the other.

[@stroVal]

So to satisfy without overwhelming your players give general descriptions but have written down the details so if they make an inquiry about something.

Example:
GC: You've entered a large room, certainly larger than the 20' x 20' rooms you've seen so far. Large enough to have decorated columns running in two rows down the center of the room.

Player: What are the decorations on the columns?

GC: Some kind of bas-relief depicting images of what looks to be a battle of some kind.

In addition, the players do not have to finish a dungeon in one fell swoop. As a matter of fact, sometimes it is better to retreat with what you can carry and come back later. Thus, this gives them a second reason to make a map so they know what they've been through in the dungeon and can guess at what they might have missed. It brings up the idea of coming back with some more hirelings or henchmen to help them tackle obstacles deeper into the dungeon as well.

coming back? Who said about even getting out of there *evil laughter*
 

[Psion]

0k here's the deal:
 I believe there is a reason Dungeon Crawling is obsolete...I believe in strong stories,settings,character interactions,you know..roleplaying

Much like Ahzad, I don't think they are mutually exclusive. Sure, if you pull out pregens, throw the mat on the table and say "you are at the entrance of the setting", then yeah. But it's perfectly doable to make it so much more.

But...part of being a good GM is hearing out your players wishes
My current gaming group cries out for some old school action...

So...What do you guys think? What constitutes a good Dungeon Crawl adventure(or campaign)?

Well, while I do admit some lingering adoration for major dungeon crawls like Rappan Athuk, I do believe that without a dedicated group with loads of free time, they can be a bit impractical.

During my last major D&D game, a "dungeon crawls" were merely location based adventure sites important to the story, and with real reasons for the group to be there. The most simple and straightforward one is that the dungeon is a dwelling, outpost, or hideout of a group that the PCs are actively opposing, and the players must go there to
1) finish off a tactically or strategically important threat, or
2) get something the bad guys have at the location that the players want or need to get (important item, kidnap victim, important information.)

How involved(If at all existent) do you want a storyline to be?

Nothing too deep, but enough that I can provide all major characters (PCs and NPCs) with reasonable motives.

How much importance do you put on the maps and traps themselves?

A cool map can be an interesting visual element to catch the players attention.

I'm not big time into traps, but think that there should be at least one thing in the adventure that is not how it seems.

This plays into the idea of the Five Room Dungeon that I frequently use as a template:

http://www.roleplayingtips.com/readissue.php?number=156#tips

Also how can you make the adventure look like a tribute to the old ones but at the same time make it something new?

The above link talks a little about that, too. 

[Psion]

here's the list of the 30 best D&D adventures voted on by the industry pros for the 30th anniversary, a lot of them are your classic dungeon crawls, but are so much more as well.

http://www.acaeum.com/forum/about3108.html
http://rpggeek.com/geeklist/47223/the-30-greatest-dd-adventures-of-all-time

Obviously, a very wise and awesome panel.

And I don't just say that because I was one of them.  

[Catodon]

Classic dungeon crawls, from the 70's and 80's esp. always felt a little contrived. On close inspectionlots of things often don't make sense.

I think Dessert Puma's 6 points are a very good start. Continuing in that vien consider "what are real 'dungeons' like?
The true 70's dungeon has no real world equivalent but the real world does have vast cave systems, mines, pyramids, ziggurats, cliff-towns...
By researching these a little perhaps you can make your dungeon seem less contrived esp. if you keep an eye on Puma's questions while your reading.

[Mister Andersen]

I still have the vast folio of maps I hand drew while playing the SSI AD&D games. I bought a graph pad especially for it.

[Sletchman]

After rereading some Discworld novels, I came up with an idea for a "Dungeon" based series of adventures - set in a city like Ankh-Morpork, where the current city is built upon the bones of the old city [also like Paris, with its extensive network of underground catacombs].  Have social outcasts living in the amongs the ruins,  perhaps for generations, with mutation and devolution running rampant, potentially leading to some dangerous individuals - who are acclimated to the darkness, the often cramped and confusing landscape, and the other natural dangers of the area [perhaps including dangerous beasts - wild dogs and the like].

The players could be down here for any number of reasons - hired to delve into the underworld to find a family heirloom, looking to explore it out of curiousity, or perhaps they tracked a dangerous mugger to his lair [a dangerous mutant living under the city].  While underground you also have traditional roleplaying interactions - the denizens, spelunkers, and many other folks [hell in Paris, there was an entire cinema set up in the catacombs - complete with restraunt and bar].

[Catodon]

Love it

[Desertpuma]

Don't forget that Paris followed Rome's example on the caves and such

[@stroVal]

After rereading some Discworld novels, I came up with an idea for a "Dungeon" based series of adventures - set in a city like Ankh-Morpork, where the current city is built upon the bones of the old city [also like Paris, with its extensive network of underground catacombs].  Have social outcasts living in the amongs the ruins,  perhaps for generations, with mutation and devolution running rampant, potentially leading to some dangerous individuals - who are acclimated to the darkness, the often cramped and confusing landscape, and the other natural dangers of the area [perhaps including dangerous beasts - wild dogs and the like].

The players could be down here for any number of reasons - hired to delve into the underworld to find a family heirloom, looking to explore it out of curiousity, or perhaps they tracked a dangerous mugger to his lair [a dangerous mutant living under the city].  While underground you also have traditional roleplaying interactions - the denizens, spelunkers, and many other folks [hell in Paris, there was an entire cinema set up in the catacombs - complete with restraunt and bar].

Reminds me of some Philip k Dick stories with mutant hideouts in the sewers 

[@stroVal]

I still have the vast folio of maps I hand drew while playing the SSI AD&D games. I bought a graph pad especially for it.

Nice

[@stroVal]

Classic dungeon crawls, from the 70's and 80's esp. always felt a little contrived. On close inspectionlots of things often don't make sense.

I think Dessert Puma's 6 points are a very good start. Continuing in that vien consider "what are real 'dungeons' like?
The true 70's dungeon has no real world equivalent but the real world does have vast cave systems, mines, pyramids, ziggurats, cliff-towns...
By researching these a little perhaps you can make your dungeon seem less contrived esp. if you keep an eye on Puma's questions while your reading.

Yes most of the time they dont even make sense construction-wise.
It's like you enter a world unrelated to the one above the ground were time doesn't flow and rooms are different domains were monsters exist without outside influence awaiting to be slain by tomb raiders/heroes

[@stroVal]

I've played in campaigns where mapping was a precision exercise, and we asked exhaustive questions about dimensions and measurements. I've also played in campaigns where our map looked like it was from King's Quest: squares labeled "great hall" and "barracks" connected by simple straight lines indicating access from one to the other.

Kings quest...that took me back in time

[@stroVal]

0k here's the deal:
 I believe there is a reason Dungeon Crawling is obsolete...I believe in strong stories,settings,character interactions,you know..roleplaying

Much like Ahzad, I don't think they are mutually exclusive. Sure, if you pull out pregens, throw the mat on the table and say "you are at the entrance of the setting", then yeah. But it's perfectly doable to make it so much more.

But...part of being a good GM is hearing out your players wishes
My current gaming group cries out for some old school action...

So...What do you guys think? What constitutes a good Dungeon Crawl adventure(or campaign)?

Well, while I do admit some lingering adoration for major dungeon crawls like Rappan Athuk, I do believe that without a dedicated group with loads of free time, they can be a bit impractical.

During my last major D&D game, a "dungeon crawls" were merely location based adventure sites important to the story, and with real reasons for the group to be there. The most simple and straightforward one is that the dungeon is a dwelling, outpost, or hideout of a group that the PCs are actively opposing, and the players must go there to
1) finish off a tactically or strategically important threat, or
2) get something the bad guys have at the location that the players want or need to get (important item, kidnap victim, important information.)

How involved(If at all existent) do you want a storyline to be?

Nothing too deep, but enough that I can provide all major characters (PCs and NPCs) with reasonable motives.

How much importance do you put on the maps and traps themselves?

A cool map can be an interesting visual element to catch the players attention.

I'm not big time into traps, but think that there should be at least one thing in the adventure that is not how it seems.

This plays into the idea of the Five Room Dungeon that I frequently use as a template:

http://www.roleplayingtips.com/readissue.php?number=156#tips

Also how can you make the adventure look like a tribute to the old ones but at the same time make it something new?

The above link talks a little about that, too. 

I guess what they really want is a brief scene were they take up a mission, a bit of role-play and descriptions(what one of my players calls cut-scenes) and then the action quickly moves to wherever they have to go and then dungeon action