Dungeon Crawl

[@stroVal]

0k here's the deal:
 I believe there is a reason Dungeon Crawling is obsolete...I believe in strong stories,settings,character interactions,you know..roleplaying

But...part of being a good GM is hearing out your players wishes
My current gaming group cries out for some old school action...

So...What do you guys think? What constitutes a good Dungeon Crawl adventure(or campaign)?
How involved(If at all existent) do you want a storyline to be?
How much importance do you put on the maps and traps themselves?
Also how can you make the adventure look like a tribute to the old ones but at the same time make it something new?

[@stroVal]

An idea I had originally was create a sand-box world (not unlike Oblivion) with connected dungeons(but that have unique architecture -not the cliche cave/brick type-and some fluff behind them) and simply go  with the flow
[although I am not sure about that as my current campaign is non-linear and my new players are confused about what to do and were]

[EloiseCartwright]

I'd be inclined to not map dungeons and have it as a scripted series of encounters with some decisions through the way (in fact I thought using a dungeon as dressing for something ripped off from the chase system from SC would be great, pursued by goblins through minas tirith?), however that's certainly not like an old school dungeon, so maybe the mapping and wandering around is part of the appeal.

A good Dungeon crawl should have more than just combat. A good set of traps, occasional ability to influence monsters and a bit of mystery breaks up the constant fighting.

Work out logical actions for NPCs for me at least nothing is as silly as a dungeon full of monsters that just sit and wait for you to appear, and if the characters rest up, have the monsters regroup and react to the PC's (using whatever they've learned about their capabilities).

[Dhampire]

When playing Dragon Age, one thing I'm going to do if/when I have a dungeon crawl is... have a open spot to the surface, with a pool of water collected beneath it.  Perhaps as a side-alcove.

Ruined building complexes which may hold an artifact being retrieved, or being sent by a group to retake it, so they can expand, provides some storyline reason for being there.

Another option is a monster (big bad by itself... or a tribe of orcs/goblins/gnolls/kobolds/etc) raiding nearby villages, using some caves (or ruins) as a lair.

[Desertpuma]

Keep in mind the reasons people went dungeon delving:

1. The need to plunder treasure
2. How old is the dungeon and what possible artifacts or items of power might be concealed within
3. Who was in charge of it previously or what denizens are in charge of it now?
4. When/How recently was it discovered to exist and why?
5. What are they chasing when the enter the dungeon? (someone who kidnapped someone, an artifact that might exist, the promise of adventure, etc)
6. What is the known history/legend of the dungeon?

In essence, there has to be a reason for them to go into the dungeon, even curiosity qualifies, and explore it. It could be a buried city or a once great city that was buried even. The walls could be carved out of stone, the traps could be mechanical or magical, and the denizens could be tricksters who delight in the party's suffering.

Here's a trick that no one has used since D&D 3.0 came out because the Living campaigns required the GMs to draw the map. Have the players draw the map. As a matter of fact, give them the first couple of rooms already drawn because it was the only known map to exist and they took it with them.
 
The chase idea is sound just imagine chasing them into an area like Kowloon's Walled City (http://designsthroughprocess.wordpress.com/2008/10/15/kowloon-walled-city/) which was seen most recently in the film Push before the whole thing was torn down.

[ahzad]

0k here's the deal:
 I believe there is a reason Dungeon Crawling is obsolete...I believe in strong stories,settings,character interactions,you know..roleplaying

But...part of being a good GM is hearing out your players wishes
My current gaming group cries out for some old school action...

So...What do you guys think? What constitutes a good Dungeon Crawl adventure(or campaign)?
How involved(If at all existent) do you want a storyline to be?
How much importance do you put on the maps and traps themselves?
Also how can you make the adventure look like a tribute to the old ones but at the same time make it something new?

i hear this alot on another forum about how a dungeon crawl is somehow incapable of anything other than kick in the door, kill the monster & take his stuff. i'm in disagreement here I think a dungeon crawl can have all those things "strong stories,settings,character interactions,you know..roleplaying". it's all in how you approach it i think. i have one player who all he wants out of a night is to kick the door in, kill & take that's fine it's how he enjoy's the game. i got another who would rather spend all night not even rolling the dice and focus on roleplaying, but most of the players i have are a mix of the two ends.

look at some of the classic dungeon crawls, most of these were run as straight kill the monsters and take their stuff, especially by our 12 year old selves, but going back to look at them again as an older wiser gamer there were plenty of little hooks that a now experienced GM could pick up and really make these things shine.

the G-D-Q series Against the Giant/Vault of the Drow had opportunities abound for character/npc interaction,  it gave you a premise for a strong story as the drow were revealed to be behind everything. the city of Eri-cenlui had all sorts of opportunities for a GM to set up intrigue.

b4 the lost city had lots of room for dungeon crawling, intrigue as you dealt with the various factions.

A1-A4 the slavers series is another really great one with lost of possibilities for the things you are looking for.

I find myself as I've gotten older looking back at these classic dungeon crawls and seeing that they were so much more than that. Take another look and you might get some inspiration on how to do what you are looking for.

here's the list of the 30 best D&D adventures voted on by the industry pros for the 30th anniversary, a lot of them are your classic dungeon crawls, but are so much more as well.

http://www.acaeum.com/forum/about3108.html
http://rpggeek.com/geeklist/47223/the-30-greatest-dd-adventures-of-all-time

[@stroVal]

i hear this alot on another forum about how a dungeon crawl is somehow incapable of anything other than kick in the door, kill the monster & take his stuff. i'm in disagreement here I think a dungeon crawl can have all those things "strong stories,settings,character interactions,you know..roleplaying". it's all in how you approach it i think.
Obviously.I share the same belief,the thing is; this group actually wants the ''kick in the door'' style of play

look at some of the classic dungeon crawls, most of these were run as straight kill the monsters and take their stuff, especially by our 12 year old selves, but going back to look at them again as an older wiser gamer there were plenty of little hooks that a now experienced GM could pick up and really make these things shine.
Indeed

I find myself as I've gotten older looking back at these classic dungeon crawls and seeing that they were so much more than that. Take another look and you might get some inspiration on how to do what you are looking for.

here's the list of the 30 best D&D adventures voted on by the industry pros for the 30th anniversary, a lot of them are your classic dungeon crawls, but are so much more as well.
Cheers 

[@stroVal]

Keep in mind the reasons people went dungeon delving:

1. The need to plunder treasure
2. How old is the dungeon and what possible artifacts or items of power might be concealed within
3. Who was in charge of it previously or what denizens are in charge of it now?
4. When/How recently was it discovered to exist and why?
5. What are they chasing when the enter the dungeon? (someone who kidnapped someone, an artifact that might exist, the promise of adventure, etc)
6. What is the known history/legend of the dungeon?

In essence, there has to be a reason for them to go into the dungeon, even curiosity qualifies, and explore it. It could be a buried city or a once great city that was buried even. The walls could be carved out of stone, the traps could be mechanical or magical, and the denizens could be tricksters who delight in the party's suffering.

Here's a trick that no one has used since D&D 3.0 came out because the Living campaigns required the GMs to draw the map. Have the players draw the map. As a matter of fact, give them the first couple of rooms already drawn because it was the only known map to exist and they took it with them.
 
The chase idea is sound just imagine chasing them into an area like Kowloon's Walled City (http://designsthroughprocess.wordpress.com/2008/10/15/kowloon-walled-city/) which was seen most recently in the film Push before the whole thing was torn down.

An interesting breakdown and link

[Desertpuma]

You're welcome... run with it...

Seriously, if you make the PCs draw the map then you can confuse them more with room traps (rotating rooms, elevator rooms, etc) that then screw up their mapping. Prior to the D&D3.0 and the Living campaigns, it was never a given you'd be able to escape a dungeon. Deus ex machina just said you got out and got your spoils. Now you can run it where they have to find a way out especially if they get lost or a trap cuts off their exit. By having the players draw it out, they also get the feeling they are exploring it more and it allows you to give them a partial copy (on tracing paper no less) of the map as a treasure that one of the denizens might have. Then they get to try and figure out how it blends with their copy of the map. Heaven forbid they get in a chase sequence, especially if they're the predator, into an unknown area.

[@stroVal]

You're welcome... run with it...

Seriously, if you make the PCs draw the map then you can confuse them more with room traps (rotating rooms, elevator rooms, etc) that then screw up their mapping. Prior to the D&D3.0 and the Living campaigns, it was never a given you'd be able to escape a dungeon. Deus ex machina just said you got out and got your spoils. Now you can run it where they have to find a way out especially if they get lost or a trap cuts off their exit. By having the players draw it out, they also get the feeling they are exploring it more and it allows you to give them a partial copy (on tracing paper no less) of the map as a treasure that one of the denizens might have. Then they get to try and figure out how it blends with their copy of the map. Heaven forbid they get in a chase sequence, especially if they're the predator, into an unknown area.

My ongoing home-brew campaign is on a Waterworld so one of the things I did was the classic treasure hunt with drawn maps(not always accurate depending on the characters sources) and some of the times it ended in underwater complexes (caves or buildings that sunk etc)
I usually do a lot of work on my handouts as I draw them myself so I think I've kinda spoiled my players...with this old style I might relax for a while ;p

[@stroVal]

When playing Dragon Age, one thing I'm going to do if/when I have a dungeon crawl is... have a open spot to the surface, with a pool of water collected beneath it.  Perhaps as a side-alcove.

Ruined building complexes which may hold an artifact being retrieved, or being sent by a group to retake it, so they can expand, provides some storyline reason for being there.

Another option is a monster (big bad by itself... or a tribe of orcs/goblins/gnolls/kobolds/etc) raiding nearby villages, using some caves (or ruins) as a lair.

Yeah I ve used  this more than once;Last time: when the PCs had their ship badly damaged and taking in water fast ; the bard recalled(after a gentle manipulation by the Gm off course ;p)* there was a local myth regarding an artifact that repairs any kind of damage on a ship but the catch was they had to  uncover it from the location at the bottom of the sea.

*=I've been planting the seeds for that hook 5 sessions prior to that, but he sort of forgot

[ArawnNox]

I've never done the "players map the dungeon" approach. Could someone fill me in on the methodology? Like, do you verbally describe the room to them and expect them to draw it out? How exact do you get in detail?

[Desertpuma]

You do verbally describe it in detail and give approximate dimensions. The way the players get correct dimensions is either by having their characters physically walking it off or, in FC's case, a Crafting (Cartography) skill roll could suffice. The closer they are to the number you mentally set, the more precise the area. Threats, errors, and crits need to be taken into account as well. As for walking off the distance, it depends on the chamber. How fast can you walk off a 20' x 20' room? I'd say 1 Full Action/rd for the person walking it AND the person writing it on the players' map. Bigger rooms require longer to walk off or more people but only one person gets to be writing it on the map.

Also, very important, the light source(s) that they are using so they can see. You cannot map what you cannot see. Conversely, if it is an extremely well-lit chamber then part of their job is done as they can see clearly enough to map out but may still get the dimensions wrong. If they have an Interest or Hobby in Mathematics, Engineering, Architecture or anything that may grant them a bonus, let them it is. Imagine if one of the characters is walking off the room and gets grabbed by something in the darkness and yanked through a secret door. How long will the party keep calling for that player's character who seemingly disappeared while walking off that section of a room alone?

I know one guy I played with once who created a couple of templates that gave off the radius of light in the different degrees and then centered it wherever the players light source was so they knew what they could see. It allowed him to place monsters just outside of their field of vision, which was especially nasty with the monsters that had ranged attacks. Imagine not being able to see without light and then having several arrows come flying out of the darkness at you. It creates a bit more of a terror situation for your character.

[@stroVal]

You do verbally describe it in detail and give approximate dimensions. The way the players get correct dimensions is either by having their characters physically walking it off or, in FC's case, a Crafting (Cartography) skill roll could suffice. The closer they are to the number you mentally set, the more precise the area. Threats, errors, and crits need to be taken into account as well. As for walking off the distance, it depends on the chamber. How fast can you walk off a 20' x 20' room? I'd say 1 Full Action/rd for the person walking it AND the person writing it on the players' map. Bigger rooms require longer to walk off or more people but only one person gets to be writing it on the map.

Also, very important, the light source(s) that they are using so they can see. You cannot map what you cannot see. Conversely, if it is an extremely well-lit chamber then part of their job is done as they can see clearly enough to map out but may still get the dimensions wrong. If they have an Interest or Hobby in Mathematics, Engineering, Architecture or anything that may grant them a bonus, let them it is. Imagine if one of the characters is walking off the room and gets grabbed by something in the darkness and yanked through a secret door. How long will the party keep calling for that player's character who seemingly disappeared while walking off that section of a room alone?

I know one guy I played with once who created a couple of templates that gave off the radius of light in the different degrees and then centered it wherever the players light source was so they knew what they could see. It allowed him to place monsters just outside of their field of vision, which was especially nasty with the monsters that had ranged attacks. Imagine not being able to see without light and then having several arrows come flying out of the darkness at you. It creates a bit more of a terror situation for your character.

See that's all good and thoughtful and all...but its too much some times
I guess its the approach of the d20 generation of games.

Having started with them I thought that was the norm but when I branched into more ''relaxed'' systems like the Storyteller system(you don't even have to take care of encumbrance) and others I came to appreciate the Narrative approach.Describe the room, have them use their skill(actual skill of player in sketching as well as the character skill) and you re done..

Most of the times exceptional attention to detail detracts of the natural flow in our sessions as well as flat out bores my players.

PS: I am not generalizing nor do I believe its either detail or no detail(just to prevent some of the responses) and in the end of the day it depends on the group of people involved and on to how much time you are willing to spend before and after sessions on preparation

[@stroVal]

On the other hand...if the game in question is indeed an old school dungeon crawl..you have more time to spend on mapping etc
If its part of a huge world and two or three unresolved adventure paths and side quests then its over kill