[Notebook] We ask only... for WAR!

[Morgenstern]

No biggie, just consider the order of operations ~

"You should add this"
"Can do. Here."
"That's wrong - the Crafty guys would do it otherise."
"I realize I'm not one of the Crafty guys anymore, but last I saw it, we'd do it like that." *shrug*

Being accused of not understanding the processes underlying book is just a little foreign to me . Ages are Alex's baby, but I kinda thought I understood how they work.

Anywho, I'll have a new version of the pikemen up soon along with a few other CCG troop types and maybe some thoughts on the Birthright additions.

[Morfedel]

Have you thought instead of making basic units and adding templates, feats, abilities, etc, the way FC does NPCs?

For example, you make a base unit of.troops, and then you can add the qualities elite or peasants, mounted, etc?

Sorta - I'm creating a troop creation system as I go. Some of what you're calling templates I'm calling traits, and they're built into defined units as part of the process. So far it's a pretty simple effects/costs system. When it stops being simple I may give up.

Again, I'm having to proceed slowly - some things like multifaceted templates really do blow the sytem all to heck. Its a very abstract system, and my experience with such systems is that it NEEDS to be abstract or the permutaitons run wild fast.  That means it might not be as flexible as anyone likes (at least at first) but it really, really needs to get some playetest before I start melding in every idea we have. That my problems/concerns with the basic pikemen are totally different than anyone else's is a bit of a warning sign to me.

Yes, but you could have some base troops and some templates and traits you can add in, each adding just a single trait, not a lot of complexity.

For instance:  If you had, for example, different phases of combat (ranged attacks first, then mounted, then infantry), and different power levels (defined by their weapons loads) and morale levels (added by peasant, normal, or elite/veteran additions), etc.

I'm not saying this suggestion is the best, just thinking that mix and match templates and traits might make it easy.

[paddyfool]

Pikemen: Warriors armed with long spears, experienced in repelling cavalry. You gain a trick.
Set to Receive Charge (battlefield trick): Win or lose, if there are any cavalry units in the enemy army, this unit gains +3 force until the end of the battle. You may use this trick once per battle.

Pikemen, Elite: Bold warriors versed in luring cavalry to their doom. You gain a trick.
Set to Impale (battlefield trick): Win or lose, destroy one enemy cavalry unit of your choice. This unit’s force is set to 0 for the remainder of the battle. You may use this trick once per battle.

While I'm not a regular user of mass combat, these two units strike me as being off in some fashion.

First, on the regular pikemen.  The way they are currently written, if there is enemy calvary, the unit gains +3 Force against ALL enemy units - including archers.  I can see the pikes being considered stronger against melee units, but why would they be stronger against ranged units?  I understand that Force applies to the entire battle, but the way its currently written, regular pikes become immune to the archer tricks (as those affect Force 3 or less and regular pikes would be Force 4).  I'd add a qualifier that the +3 bonus does not apply when considering the unit's strength vs. the Volley trick.

Plus, the way things are currently written, the Elite Pikes are a WORSE choice to have in your army.  Sure, they can destroy an enemy calvary unit, but they are always Force 2, and they're more expensive.  The regular pikes end up being stronger than the elites and will be so for the entire battle (as a wise metagaming commander will kill the enemy calvary last to keep that +3 force bonus).  To tweak this, I'd add the Impale trick to the Set trick (thus letting the elite have both).

If I were to differentiate elite from basic pikes, it would be with the ability to attack.  Anyone can make a hedgehog, but a proper pike charge requires extensive training, and also requires more manoeverable flanking units to prevent the enemy simply going around the spear wall.  Also, densely packed

However, you'll need to differentiate aggressive from defensive battles to represent this...

So... pikes might be Force 1, +1 vs Cavalry, -1 vs Ranged, with a trick (Hedgehog) that gives them +2 Force in defensive battles.

Elite Pikes would be Force 3, +1 vs Cavalry, -1 vs Ranged,. with a trick (Combined formations) that gives them +1 Force if used in an army that contains units other than pikes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_(weapon)

[Aldus Vertten]

I really need to get some friends to play, the last few weeks have been very busy and a little playing break would do wonders for my mood. This has been in the back of my mind for the last few days, and i keep thinking about making some kind of one-shot session playtesting this, along some ideas i 've been playing with about having individual actions included in the system. I've also checked out Pendragon battle system, to see if it could spark some other idea...

I was thinking that at any moment, PC can spend 1 action dice to make Heroic Actions during the battle. This actions could grant extra succeses toward the Force points needed to win the battle. Things like Regroup Units, conquer strategic sites, Singular combat against an enemy's officer. Each PC could, onece per turn, use an action dice and resolve one of this situations within the battle. Obviously, the GM could develop as well new complications for them (yeah, it's just adpating the player's perks and Gm comlications system to the Battle system...)

And as an apart, maybe a Medic Unit and a Messengers Unit could be an interesting addition to the units list. They would be support oriented...

[Medwyn]

What is the difference between being Dispersed and destroyed?

I'm guessing that destroyed means killed, gone, no longer coming back etc.

My guess is with dispersed is that they are no longer involved in this battle but remain "alive" at the end of the battle.

[Medwyn]

Here are a couple of my own thoughts on some unit types.


Berserker (Infantry/Cavalry): Raged up and ready to unleash hell upon their foes these trained (or drugged) warriors are unafraid of war. This unit cannot be dispersed and are considered both Infantry and Cavalry. You gain a trick:
   Raging Charge: Destroy a single unit with a Force of 6 or less or Disperse two units with a Force of 3 or less. This unit is then dispersed.

Medics (Special): Medics, be it holy healers, trained physicians or somewhere inbetween, they help to keep your army on it's feet. You gain a trick:
    Reset: You may restore a single unit to it's original Force. This does not allow it to regain any used tricks.  This unit is then dispersed.


Scouts (Infantry): Scouts are well-versed in stealth and wilderness lore, thus they are often able to move rapidly, even through difficult terrain. They are are also useful for softening up opposing units before disappearing back into the terrain. You gain a trick:
    Wear and Tear: Win or lose you may reduce a single unit's Force by 1. A unit may only ever have it's Force reduced once in this fashion. This unit is then dispersed.


Table X.XX Common Units
Units                         Cost   Glory   Force   Tricks         Traits   Troops
                  
Berserkers                    9      3        3         Rage          Infantry   80
Medic                            4       1       0         Reset          Special     20
Scouts                          4       1       1      Wear & Tear  Infantry   60

  

[vardeman]

Berserker (Infantry/Cavalry): Raged up and ready to unleash hell upon their foes these trained (or drugged) warriors are unafraid of war. This unit cannot be dispersed and are considered both Infantry and Cavalry. You gain a trick:
   Raging Charge: Destroy a single unit with a Force of 6 or less or Disperse two units with a Force of 3 or less. This unit is then dispersed.[/i]

Emphasis mine.  Could use some clarification.

V

[Medwyn]

Berserker (Infantry/Cavalry): Raged up and ready to unleash hell upon their foes these trained (or drugged) warriors are unafraid of war. This unit cannot be dispersed by another unit and are considered both Infantry and Cavalry. You gain a trick:
    Raging Charge: Destroy a single unit with a Force of 6 or less or Disperse two units with a Force of 3 or less. This unit is then dispersed.


Does that help clear it up?

My idea is that berserkers are totally amped up and can not be dispersed by other units, however once they are unleashed onto the field they get right into it and effectively are removed from the battle.

[vardeman]

That works.

V

[aegis]

I'm going to need these rules soon, but I was wondering something. An army's Force is based on the character's Basic, Melee, and Unarmed Combat feats? I'm surprised Terrain feats do not appear first of all, maybe even alone with Basic Combat feats. What do you think?

What is the difference between being Dispersed and destroyed?

Destroyed units must be replaced during Downtime. Dispersed units are only unavailable until the end of the battle (plus maybe a few days depending on the circumstances I'll say).

[Morgenstern]

The idea is that Force represents raw ability to beat the other guy senseles. Its a semi-usefull, semi-abstract formula for measuring how combatant-y a character is. Its also design to produce fairly low numbers. A non-combatant charcter buils should be spitting out 0's and 1's. Maybe an occasional 2 Force (from taking a saves boosting feat most likely). A character with a full B/M/S chain for a weapon type or Rokugan-inspired school would jump directly to 3, and possibly go much higher (but rarely more than 10). This produces a gap between combatants and non-combatant heroes, but hopefully no an insurmountable one .

I would probably require the expenditure of a proficiency slot (or similar 1 design point cost) to use Terrain feats to determine Force (basically making you an effective guerilla warrior who destroys/disables large numbers of enemies via terrain and traps). I could also see a Terrain feat that adds your Terrain feats to your Force.

Incidentally, there's nearly a whole page of posts here I don't recognize, so it looks like progress was made at some point that I was unaware of. Will try to get some feedback together, and have a change or two planed for the pikemen .

[Agent 333]

I'll be honest, I only skimmed, so  I apologize if it's already been brought up:
It doesn't seem to me that the Captain has much of an advantage in these type of combats, and would actually lose regularly to a Solider build dedicating a similar amount of resources to the fight. Admittedly, Master and Commander means your Tactics is probably higher than your opponent's, but not by a lot. Personally, I'd tie some sort of advantage to Battle Planning so that Paladins and people with Cross-Training can get in on the action, but Captains do it naturally.

Again, sorry if these points have already been made.

[Morgenstern]

So long as the Captain has enough Force that the Soldier isn't geting the bonus for having 3 times the Force, I expect the Captain will do pretty well... In theory. Would love to see a playtest or even a fairly developed though .

I've also updated the pikemen (regular and elite). I may tweak their cost up a bit higher also.

[LordKruelos]

[Hopefully-Permissible Thread Necromancy?]

Some playtesting and additional fiddling results

Minor proposed changes:
Make the -1 cumulative penalty apply to consecutive Battle rounds where a Leader has made Battle or Rally checks

When hiring Mercenary units, use a Haggle check with an asking price = (Cost + Risk & Incentive modifiers) x 10 s (see Table 2.12: Persuasion and Coercion, p.75, for Risk and Incentive modifiers.

Major proposed changes:
(Optional) Battle Strategy & The Fog of War

(Optional: When the GM determines the Commanders have had time to prepare a Battle Strategy) Before the battle begins, the Commanders make opposed Battle Strategy (Tactics, Int) checks, with each Commander applying modifiers to his Battle Strategy check according to his knowledge about his Opponent, his Own Army, and the Battleground (Modifier range: None (-10), Poor (-4), Basic, (+0), Good (+4), Excellent (+10)). The winner of the opposed Battle Strategy check gives a Strategy bonus to his Army's Battlefield checks for that battle equal to +1 plus an additional +1 per 4 by which he wins the check.

Rationale: This roll is an abstraction for forcing an enemy into an unfavorable position, acquiring intelligence about an enemy's plans and movements, and other methods of setting the battlefield in a general's favor. Additionally, it gives potential intermediate objectives for PCs to go do (e.g. Go infiltrate the enemy camp so we can learn their plans / go scout the land / drill your troops. etc) between Battles.

Rallying the Troops
The battlefield is a frightening place, with death and destruction everywhere. Under the stress of battle, many creatures abandon their army’s cause for one much more immediate: self-preservation. A warrior who begins to succumb to fear progresses down a slippery slope. Only a charismatic leader can bring such a creature back into the fray.
An eligible Leader may attempt to rally any one Dispersed unit during a single Battle Round. One Leader cannot attempt to rally more than one unit during a single Rally Phase. A commander who attempts to rally a unit, regardless of success, may exercise command and perform any other actions during later phases of the Battle Round, however the Rally counts towards the penalty for cumulative Battlefield rolls

To rally a Dispersed unit, a Leader present in the same Front makes a Morale Check for that unit, see Table 7.27: Morale for the base DC and add 2 x Threat Level. If the check is successful, the unit rallies and returns to the front on the next Battle round. If the check fails, the unit remains Dispersed until the end of the current Battle.

Rationale: Seems like a reasonable integration of something that makes sense, the existing rules for Morale checks, and giving leaders something else to be able to do. Alternately, a more complicate path may want to consider making a distinction between Dispersed and Routed unit condition, where Routed troops are eligible for Rally, but Dispersed are not. For now, I opted to keep it simple and treat any Dispersed as potentially targeted by a Rally

[LordKruelos]

Additional draft ideas for battlefield tricks (some for Units, others for PCs)

Ploy (battlefield trick): You may choose to use one of the following skills when making the next opposed Battlefield check during the same Battle: Blend (Wis), Bluff (Int), Impress (Cha), Intimidate (Str/Wis), Ride (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), or Survival (Wis). You may use this trick once per battle.

Hearts and Minds (battlefield trick): The Leader distinguishes himself on the battlefield, impressing friend and foe with an act of great valor. The character gains 1d4+Legend in Reputation. You may use this trick once per battle.

Dig In X (battlefield trick):  Win or lose, construct hoardings and other temporary defenses, granting the defender a +X bonus to Battlefield checks in this Front. This unit’s force is set to 0 for the remainder of the battle. You may use this trick once per battle.

Never Say Die (battlefield trick): A single target unit that has been Destroyed in this battle may make a Will save (DC equal to 5 + (5 x target's Force). With success, the target unit is Dispersed and may not be return to this battle. This unit’s force is set to 0 for the remainder of the battle. You may use this trick once per battle.

Shield Wall Formation (battlefield trick): Units with shield formation training employ large shields and are trained to use overhead shield walls to blunt the impact of missile fire, counting as if their Force were 1 higher for purposes of Volley battlefield tricks. You may use this trick until you have succeeded with it once per battle.

Sicken (extraordinary battlefield trick): Win or lose, one enemy unit of your choice must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + this unit's Threat Level) or become Sickened for the next Battlefield round.

Fear (extraordinary battlefield trick): Before the Leaders roll their Battlefield checks, one enemy unit must make a Will save (DC 5 + 5/Frightening grade) or be Dispersed.

Finish the Job (battlefield trick): One enemy unit that has been Dispersed must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + this unit's Threat Level) or be Destroyed instead. This unit’s force is set to 0 for the remainder of the battle. You may use this trick once per battle.


Playtest/Extension Questions:

What is the effect of Size in Battle/Force calculations? How should units constructed with Large or Small-sized creatures change the baseline?

How could we potentially apply Rogue Templates to these basic unit types?

How to handle some supernatural effects and conditions, e.g. should a unit of Ghouls be able to sicken or paralyze a susceptible unit? How about Wights and other creatures with Killing Conversion?

Some conditions might imply unit conditions, especially Entangled, Fatigued, Frightened, Shaken, Sickened, Stunned.

Something I'm going to try out in playtest: Conditions with Grades (like Fatigued and Shaken) will generally impact a unit's Force rating by 1/grade. Conditions that apply a flat modifier (like Entangled or Sickened) impact Force by 1/each +-2