you guys playing with all races?

[coldwarkid]

Hi there;
I'm new to FC and new to this forum. I'm very interested in this thread.

I've played several versions of D&D on and off for a little over thirty years. I walked away from a 3.5 edition game a few years ago because the level of number crunching and min maxing was turning me off the game completely. We also had the problem with players vs DM that I've seen posted here. I've come to FC to escape most of that. I must confess I like a balance between good story telling & character development and some crunchy combat to punctuate the adventures.

I like the overall structure of Fantasy Craft so far (I've just gotten the errata) and I'm still getting to know the book. but I am concerned about the great disparities between the large 'monstrous' races and the human/humanoid races.

Maybe I'm jaded by recent experience but it seems next to impossible to get four to six gamers together and not have one in the bunch who will immediately latch onto whatever options offer the biggest crunch advantages and milk them for all their worth. This invariably hurts others making choices for flavorful reasons. It also makes encounters that test everyone's mettle equally more complicated. My experience is mostly as a player; I'm still a novice GM.

I'm not opposed to having giants or maybe tauric races in my game but I'd like to see their advantages offset by some expenditure of racial feats or something. I see that it takes two feats to gain flight yet Drake's have it at first level.

I'm using my own setting so Drakes won't be allowed but giants are an option as well as an avian race I'm tinkering with.

What are your thoughts on this guys.

[Big_Jim]

The size thing is just as much a hindrance as it is a beat-stick facilitator. Every time the party needs to go where that large scale character can't... that's part of the game balance. That's what Personal Lts are for, in many a large scale character's eyes - To go where your over-sized butt can't.

Also, Rep hits for gratuitous property destruction teach to big bruisers to learn to rein in their 'hulk smash!' tendencies.

If you've got players who think they're getting a big-gulp of awesome while everybody else in the party are idiots for only getting the medium... show them that a big-gulp can't fit in every car's cup holders.

Did I go to far on analogies? Did that even make sense?

[Krensky]

The drake's lack of opposable thumbs comes into play as well.

Oh, and th drake paid for his flight as part of his species.

[ArawnNox]

Welcome to the forums!
The thing I've come to notice about FC is that the little tricks of the system really won't fall into place until you actually put them into practice. The closest I think the forums ever got to min/max abuse was the Defendinator (abuse of the pre-errata tower shield's guard bonus, the Multi-Limbed and Truely Massive feats.) and it got squashed fairly quickly.
The system is fairly strong and attempting to create a character who excels at their given field to the severe detriment of everything else will only cripple the character thanks to the wide variety of actions one can take in combat. A fighter tanking his intelligence score wont have the skills needed to keep his Athletics, Acrobatics, Sense Motive, or Resolve scores up, so he'll be vulnerable to a monster's threaten, or bull-rush, or trip, or distract. Lots of people here will tell you that this system rewards generalized characters (one of the first I've personally ever encountered).
Should anything blind side you about the rules or how to handle something, just pop on here and ask. This is one of the best forum communities I've ever seen.

[Morfedel]

Hm, I just noticed they removed Truly Massive from 2nd printing / errata. Why did they do that? I thought it was cool that you could play a huge critter, heh!

[Doublebond]

Hm, I just noticed they removed Truly Massive from 2nd printing / errata. Why did they do that? I thought it was cool that you could play a huge critter, heh!

It was ruled overpowered. It still remains one of the most popular feats, though. IIRC several people on this forum still use it in their games.

[coldwarkid]

Thanks for your thoughts.

It had completely escaped my notice that Drakes don't have oppose-able thumbs. A seemingly small detail that means a great deal.

I'm encouraged by your comments on the way the system design works against min-max tactics ArawnNox. Do you have much exposure to D&D 3.5?

I will keep going through the book and kicking the tires. I really want this system to be my High Fantasy Adventure solution.

later. 

[Krensky]

Well, one thing to come to terms with is that the attribute curve has been flattened. Basically, to get  good feel for the equivalence, take the D&D 3.X attribute bonus and add it to 10. Taking an 8 in anything will hurt.

Also, a combatant needs more then just BAB and Defense. They also need to pay attention to skills used as defenses against tripping, grappling, and in combat mind games.

Similarly, even a Courtier or Keeper can hang with a Soldiers or a Lancer. They'll never outshine their combatant buddies, but they can contribute.

Basically, if a player starts to min-max, you have plenty of tools to hit the min part. Fantasy Craft is really a narrative game at it's heart, so when a player builds a character to kick ass and take names in combat, or social situations, or whatever at the expense of ability somewhere else he's saying 'I am willing to loose most of the time at these things in order to win most of the time at those things." It's the GM's job to make sure that both of those come up regularly.

[ArawnNox]

Thanks for your thoughts.

It had completely escaped my notice that Drakes don't have oppose-able thumbs. A seemingly small detail that means a great deal.

I'm encouraged by your comments on the way the system design works against min-max tactics ArawnNox. Do you have much exposure to D&D 3.5?

I will keep going through the book and kicking the tires. I really want this system to be my High Fantasy Adventure solution.

later. 

I have a long history of love/hate with 3.5 (and a shelf full of books). I made my official departure from DnD when 4E came out. Since it's not related to the main topic, I won't go into the things I encountered that made me start to loathe 3.5's mechanics and systems.
Like you, I wanted something different and fun from a gaming system and sorta stumbled across Fantasy Craft by accident. I've very much fallen in love with the game.

[paddyfool]

Also, although silver isn't the best balancer, armour is horribly expensive for Drakes.

[Sletchman]

Hi there;
I'm new to FC and new to this forum. I'm very interested in this thread.

Welcome to the forums, and to the fold.

I'm using my own setting so Drakes won't be allowed but giants are an option as well as an avian race I'm tinkering with.

What are your thoughts on this guys.

Though it might not seem it at first glace, all the origin options [both races and talents] in the core book are carefully balanced against one another.  Large isn't quite the advantage it is in 3.5 [a ruleset I have considerable experience with - on both sides of the screen] as it doesn't provide the automatic strength and damage boost that it does in 3.5.

If you look through the origin creation guidelines in the Wiki [here] you will see that every advantage has a cost [where the Drake gets flight, the Dwarf has Thick Hide and Enlightened Craft] - plus it'll help you with your avain race.

When you have it finalised, throw it up in License to Improvise and you'll get some feedback and help polishing it.

[Catodon]

When you have it finalised, throw it up in License to Improvise and you'll get some feedback and help polishing it.

Yeh do that, I was you a couple of months ago and got good guidence with my raven spp.

[Dawnblade]

In my gaming group we usually stick to the Medium races, excluding Drakes, Rootwalkers, Unborn, Giants, and occasionally Ogres.  We also usually have the same person GMing as the others in our group that have tried to GM get overwhelmed when blindsided by something and drop the campaign.  We also tend to have the GM Vs Players mentality, which I hate because in my opinion we all have set aside time to play this game together so we should all enjoy it.  I also feel this happens because my group has a horrific tendency to see all failure and not an option.  So If the GM throws a challenge our way and because of bad rolls or its piloted to be tough or maybe not possible to succeed(to set a tone or introduce the "Real" villain), some members of my group will continue to fight as if running away to fight another day is not an option or will get angry at the GM.

That rant aside,

I am eagerly waiting for spellbound to come out and adventure companion because I will be running my first FC game in about two months after absorbing the content.  I have been waiting because my world I have created is a High Fantasy world where magic is commonplace and I feel these two additional books will be extremely useful.  In that setting All the races will be in the world but I was thinking of limiting players to not being able to play Drakes, Rootwalkers, and Giants.  Partly because I am not new to playing this system but It is my first time running it, Also my GM experience only amounts to a handful of Whitewolf games(mostly new mage). 

[Goodlun]

In that setting All the races will be in the world but I was thinking of limiting players to not being able to play Drakes, Rootwalkers, and Giants.  Partly because I am not new to playing this system but It is my first time running it, Also my GM experience only amounts to a handful of Whitewolf games(mostly new mage). 

While it certainly is your game, I would encourage you if they are going to be in the world to go ahead and open them up to the players.  You will find that they are balanced well enough that they shouldn't give you too much in the way of head aches vs other races. 

[Dawnblade]

In that setting All the races will be in the world but I was thinking of limiting players to not being able to play Drakes, Rootwalkers, and Giants.  Partly because I am not new to playing this system but It is my first time running it, Also my GM experience only amounts to a handful of Whitewolf games(mostly new mage). 

While it certainly is your game, I would encourage you if they are going to be in the world to go ahead and open them up to the players.  You will find that they are balanced well enough that they shouldn't give you too much in the way of head aches vs other races. 

It's not so much the Balance I am worried about, In truth I love the way this FC balances so well.  My worry is that since my group is never allowed to play them I will have a full party of drakes or half large creatures and half medium or smaller creatures and be forced to deal with things like perhaps the party decides to head to a human bar to question a patron there about his dealings with the Orc slave trade.  Now If things heat up into a combat half the party is left out.  Then what do I do leave them out, have him run outside where his goons are waiting around,or fudge it so he gives up without a fight just because of the situation. Heh, and even then there is a good chance that say for example the giant in the group says I make a new Giant friendly door or he lifts up the roof.  Now mind you some of the things I mentioned sound hilarious and fun but I do not think it will be funny if its happening twice a session.