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Author Topic: Martial Arts in SC3  (Read 2086 times)
rgpandrade
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« on: August 29, 2010, 04:27:05 PM »

I do apologize right now for the long windedness of this post; however I felt the need to explain my thought process.  So here goes.

The Agency I use for the games recruit personnel with experience; Military, Police, Intelligence.  Things like that.  As such they would have Hand-to-Hand combat experience.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand-to-hand_combat

This being the case I was lucky enough to have players that were in the field in RL (Cops and Ex-Military) and these resources confirmed my thought that they would have a particular level of training beyond the ‘General HTH’ training seen on James Bond films.  What we had to do was, using the rules and templates as laid-out on pages 186-187 of the Pocket Guide, create Martial Arts that reflected the real world training.  With those in mind we brainstormed and realized that, while using those rules and making some changes we could expand on them.  When we were done we created some more.

We realized that, using the Base, Expert and Master Class tier system we could apply that same tiered structure to HTH fighting which allowed for some latitude.  We considered the examples listed in the Pocket Guide as our Base system and as such we removed the 'Martial Arts' feat from that list since, as described, it gave the possessor of that feat mastery over their chosen art and we felt that this was not possible after ‘basic’ training.  Some actually thought that 5 feats would be better to start with however; we agreed to see if we could work it using the system as was described in the book at least for the base; we also realized that the template that you created was a solid one since we used it as a starting point.
Aikido Base:
Wrestling Basics, Equilibrium Basic, Rolling Basics, Submission Basics.
Aikido Expert:
Vital Points Basic, Warriors Grace, Footwork Basic, Momentum Basics
Aikido Master:
Submission Moves, Vital Point Moves, Rolling Moves, Martial Arts.

This is an example of what we ended up doing.  We believed that if a person was chosen by the Agency for some other Non-Combat type skill they would be the ‘Penelope Garcia’ of the crowd and would not get much in the way of field work.  However we created something especially for them called “Self-Taught/You-Tuber” We felt that with all the access to video type training from you tube and the like it was highly possible for them to have a rudimentary concept of fighting.  We also felt that this might be the one to use for the ‘General HTH’ that one would see on TV.

The other thing we played around with was some of the Specialties so that we could make the Basic of any style a given based on the specialty…example would be Operative, Serviceman, Special Ops, Warrior.  As well as what they would normally get for that specialty they would also get ‘Martial Arts Basic’ meaning that whatever country and or agency they came from they would get the martial art that their country and or agency trains them in at a basic level (Sambo, MCPAP, Krav Maga, Karate…etc).  People who chose Geek, Researcher, and the Like would get the ‘Self-Taught Basic’

Now all of this became possible because I had access to people who are in thye field and access to the internet but also, and most important Crafty Pat and Alex because you put the templates in with the long list of Unarmed Combat Feats.  You guys did the initial work of putting in the side bar just for guys like me and the ones I played with for years.  Some have suggested that Martial Arts get their own book because of things like Chi.  I personally believe that this is nonsense; in my opinion they belong in the basic system because Martial Arts in a setting such as this is not in the realm of John Woo wire fu but is practiced on a daily basis by men and women who do some semblance of the job which we are honoring by playing.
Is John Woo Wire-Fu’isim a bad thing?  Absolutely not!  Just look at the Big Hit; Mission Impossible (Channel the dove scene here), The Bourne Movies…Oh wait.  That is not Wire-Fu; ok my bad, try Crouching Tiger/Hidden Dragon, 5 Fingers of Death, Hero, all very cool and should have their own book.  The rest of it though should not have a separate book.  The feats should stay the same and the sidebar should stay the same.  Should they be expanded upon beyond what you folks have written out?  Now that I think about it;   probably not; that could be saved for a separate book but with the basic template as laid out by you guys still in place we, the players can each decide what we want to do.  Do we want to expand on them like I did? Do we want to leave them out? Do we want to use them as is?  That is the power of leaving them in; we, the players can decide.

Now on to the other issue.  Book space; should things be torn out.  Yea sure.  A main book should have the basics: Character Creation, Skills, Feats, Gear, World-Adventure-NPC Building.  Tear something out?  Gear but not the system of giving gear (Oh wait I can hear it now---“But we need gear.”)  True.  However a detailed list of gear could be saved for a compendium; the only thing that needs to be delivered in a main book is type of round and weapon (9mm, 45, 3.57, 7.62, MG, SMG, Rifle, Sniper Rifle,) We don’t need a long list of weapons like the Bren or the AK-47/74 or the HK whatever.  That can be saved for the compendium just like vehicles and Tradecraft gear.  That is about 100 pages right there gone!  Even a lot of the Game Mastering material and a lot of the non basic World/Adventure Building material could be pulled out and placed into a ‘Game Mastery’ book for lack of a better name.  However the big three (Character Creation, Skills and Feats) need to be left alone.  The basics though are important.  If we see that a 9mm SMG does a particular amount of damage then we the players and GC’s can use that to apply to whatever weapon we look up and decide our character uses from whatever country makes them.  “A 9mm does this amount of damage and can weigh from this to this…”  We can do the rest guys.
Heck; want to do something cool?  Give us a tool box for creating our own skills and feats!  Give us the same template you cool folks used to create the skills and feats!  We can do the rest.
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Goodlun
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« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2010, 05:47:32 PM »

Howdy rgpandrade,

Here is the problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program
Is probably the best hand to hand program that the U.S. Government runs.  Even those who achieve the Black belt 1st degree in this system have spent less time training than most of the blue belts in a jujitsu/judo school.  I would be hard pressed to even give them any of the hand to hand feats presented in any of the previous books.  Most US government run organizations simply do not pursue lengthy H2H training for their agents.  I think the BAB and Athletics skill, and the unarmed forte cover what is learned here just fine.
Now this is just if you want to talk about reality.
Once we through reality out the window well than we do have to consider things such as wire-fu, chi, death touches, pressure points, ect... Not to mention many people want to play those sort of games in an espionage setting.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 06:02:35 PM by Goodlun » Logged
rgpandrade
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« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2010, 06:20:47 PM »

Howdy rgpandrade,

Here is the problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program
Is probably the best hand to hand program that the U.S. Government runs.  Even those who achieve the Black belt 1st degree in this system have spent less time training than most of the blue belts in a jujitsu/judo school.  I would be hard pressed to even give them any of the hand to hand feats presented in any of the previous books.  Most US government run organizations simply do not pursue lengthy H2H training for their agents.  I think the BAB and Athletics skill cover what is learned here just fine.
Now this is just if you want to talk about reality.
Once we through reality out the window well than we do have to consider things such as wire-fu, chi, death touches, pressure points, ect... Not to mention many people want to play those sort of games in an espionage setting.

I personally disagree that BAB and Athletics cover what is learned just fine.  Knowing Marines who were taught HTH in Basic and beyond there are things that were taught to them that is not covered by the items you choose.  I can see if others, yourself included want to do that sort of thing but the option for those of us that do not should be included in the main book and not relegated to a supplement.

I want my choices just as you want your simplicity and I do not feel that the two are mutually exclusive.

There is also this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapap

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambo_(martial_art).

Ultimately what this comes down to is options; You want a simplier option and I want custimization options.  I think we should both get what we want and they both need to be in the main book.
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rgpandrade
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« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2010, 06:28:31 PM »

Howdy rgpandrade,

Here is the problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program
Is probably the best hand to hand program that the U.S. Government runs.  Even those who achieve the Black belt 1st degree in this system have spent less time training than most of the blue belts in a jujitsu/judo school.  I would be hard pressed to even give them any of the hand to hand feats presented in any of the previous books.  Most US government run organizations simply do not pursue lengthy H2H training for their agents.  I think the BAB and Athletics skill, and the unarmed forte cover what is learned here just fine.
Now this is just if you want to talk about reality.
Once we through reality out the window well than we do have to consider things such as wire-fu, chi, death touches, pressure points, ect... Not to mention many people want to play those sort of games in an espionage setting.


In your post you also used a link to validate your point.  However there were other things that may have been missed.  Particular Belts required particular ranks.  Also Marines need to maintain a level of fitness at all times meaning that need to continue training.  I can see where, looking at the hours one might say that this is a shorter time then in standard martial arts but one needs to look further to see that the time required is considerable higher when one considers rank requirements as well as specific class taking requirements as well as the physical conditioning requirements that are a day to day part of any military person’s life.  These things are; in my opinion, not covered by waving the BAB and Athletics wand.  If it works for you then right on but it does not work for me.
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Goodlun
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« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2010, 06:28:48 PM »


There is also this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapap

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambo_(martial_art).

Ultimately what this comes down to is options; You want a simpler option and I want customization options.  I think we should both get what we want and they both need to be in the main book.
I am well aware of these and have even practiced Sambo the truth is the link I sent you is what Marines are taught.  And most of them get less than 30 hours of it.  You can run the game the way you like but in 30 hours of training your not picking up the same level of bad assery as you are with even the basics level of most of the hand to hand feats.
Even the spetsnaz where taught a very watered down version of Sambo(or about 120 hours worth) this is far less than someone who studies it on their own.
Same thing with Karve Maga and Isrealli H2H military schools they are taught about a whopping 60 hours worth.  
In all these cases its not even enough to reach the 1st level of promotion for most of these systems.
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« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2010, 06:31:27 PM »

Howdy rgpandrade,

Here is the problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program
Is probably the best hand to hand program that the U.S. Government runs.  Even those who achieve the Black belt 1st degree in this system have spent less time training than most of the blue belts in a jujitsu/judo school.  I would be hard pressed to even give them any of the hand to hand feats presented in any of the previous books.  Most US government run organizations simply do not pursue lengthy H2H training for their agents.  I think the BAB and Athletics skill, and the unarmed forte cover what is learned here just fine.
Now this is just if you want to talk about reality.
Once we through reality out the window well than we do have to consider things such as wire-fu, chi, death touches, pressure points, ect... Not to mention many people want to play those sort of games in an espionage setting.


In your post you also used a link to validate your point.  However there were other things that may have been missed.  Particular Belts required particular ranks.  Also Marines need to maintain a level of fitness at all times meaning that need to continue training.  I can see where, looking at the hours one might say that this is a shorter time then in standard martial arts but one needs to look further to see that the time required is considerable higher when one considers rank requirements as well as specific class taking requirements as well as the physical conditioning requirements that are a day to day part of any military person’s life.  These things are; in my opinion, not covered by waving the BAB and Athletics wand.  If it works for you then right on but it does not work for me.

Living in San Diego I know plenty Marines.  They really don't spend much time doing H2H stuff.  Nor do they stay all that fit.  Usually fitter than someone else in the same age group but trust me they are not all star athletes.
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rgpandrade
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« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2010, 06:37:12 PM »

Howdy rgpandrade,

Here is the problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program
Is probably the best hand to hand program that the U.S. Government runs.  Even those who achieve the Black belt 1st degree in this system have spent less time training than most of the blue belts in a jujitsu/judo school.  I would be hard pressed to even give them any of the hand to hand feats presented in any of the previous books.  Most US government run organizations simply do not pursue lengthy H2H training for their agents.  I think the BAB and Athletics skill, and the unarmed forte cover what is learned here just fine.
Now this is just if you want to talk about reality.
Once we through reality out the window well than we do have to consider things such as wire-fu, chi, death touches, pressure points, ect... Not to mention many people want to play those sort of games in an espionage setting.


In your post you also used a link to validate your point.  However there were other things that may have been missed.  Particular Belts required particular ranks.  Also Marines need to maintain a level of fitness at all times meaning that need to continue training.  I can see where, looking at the hours one might say that this is a shorter time then in standard martial arts but one needs to look further to see that the time required is considerable higher when one considers rank requirements as well as specific class taking requirements as well as the physical conditioning requirements that are a day to day part of any military person’s life.  These things are; in my opinion, not covered by waving the BAB and Athletics wand.  If it works for you then right on but it does not work for me.

Living in San Diego I know plenty Marines.  They really don't spend much time doing H2H stuff.  Nor do they stay all that fit.  Usually fitter than someone else in the same age group but trust me they are not all star athletes.


I Guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.   What it ultimately comes down to is Options like I said earlier.  I want my options and anything less would make me not want to play.
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« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2010, 06:42:57 PM »

[quote author=rgpandrade link=topic=3662.msg73666#msg73666 date=1283125032

I Guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.   What it ultimately comes down to is Options like I said earlier.  I want my options and anything less would make me not want to play.
[/quote]

Fair enough but this is exactly the debate that Alex was talking about  Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2010, 06:55:30 PM »

[quote author=rgpandrade link=topic=3662.msg73666#msg73666 date=1283125032

I Guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.   What it ultimately comes down to is Options like I said earlier.  I want my options and anything less would make me not want to play.

Fair enough but this is exactly the debate that Alex was talking about  Smiley
[/quote]

Well; considering that I disagree with most of your points and considering the fact that I pointed out some flaws in your rationale and considering the fact that I have had exposure to both military and civilian H2H this is not really a debate.  Also the fact that you lumped things like Dim-Mak (Death Touch) and wire fu with things like Pressure Points (Vital Point Feats) also tells me that we might be on 2 different pages and makes me question whether or not we are looking at this the same way.  That being the case this is not really a debate but a difference in play and GMing styles which ultimnately means Options....Like I said earlier.  I want my options when it comes to Reality Based Martial arts and I am a staunch believer that they can be listed in the Main book without creating some seperate material that cheesily clumps them all together with Dim Mak.  Not that I would be opposed to such a book mind you I just think that the level of hoakiness you may be thinking about does not fit into the way I run and play the game.  Which is currently supported by the Feats section in 2.0 as well as the section on page 186-187. Smiley
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Goodlun
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« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2010, 07:25:19 PM »


Well; considering that I disagree with most of your points and considering the fact that I pointed out some flaws in your rationale and considering the fact that I have had exposure to both military and civilian H2H this is not really a debate. 
Of course your totally ignoring the exposure to both military and civilian H2H combat training that I have had.  There is a reason that we have a fair amount of Law and Enforcement and Marines in our BJJ classes its because they want more than what there agencies have to offer.
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« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2010, 07:45:59 PM »

Martial arts as presented in the 2.0 or FC book works just fine for a game.

Similarly, for SC3, reducing the gear section to generic firearms would annoy me to no end.

Your complicated martial arts thing works for your table, great. It would annoy mine to no end. Similarly you may be fine with generic weapons, my table and I are not.

If I want exacting and detailed martial arts, I'll play or make a game dedicated to the martial arts genre and world.
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« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2010, 07:56:16 PM »

I have split this thread as this discussion is in depth enough to drag the original post off topic.

As I have said, your concerns are noted, rgpandrade. And I reiterate that SC3 will not be 500 pages long, and that means some things are by necessity - pretty much everything - is going to have to be cut back. Speaking proportionally, it would follow you could likely not see 34 unarmed combat feats in the core book (outline is not finalized yet), but that doesn't mean they won't be out there eventually.  You've noted you don't care if some more came out later - that's a good thing cause we probably can't fit all of 2.0s stuff in there.

The dance is quite tricky with a game this old. We need to nail a genre that's been a big part of popular fiction since about WWII, accomodating all sorts of styles (lots of intrigue, a single bullet kills to jumping out of the way of explosions caused by orbital mind control lasers). For example, while you really like martial arts but don't appear to care for much detail on guns or cars, there are plenty of other folks who go both ways. And we have to serve both masters with one game that for a whole lot of reasons cannot be the same size as 2.0.  Such is our challenge Smiley

I do agree with you the sidebar on creating approximations of a martial art using the existing feats is useful and would likely stay in. Anything that helps people see the system in practice is a Good Thing in our book. And we're not going to just put 3 unarmed combat feats in the book. But the level of detail and what is core vs. what comes later has to be decided looking at things as a whole.

One other thing from your first post - you ask for a template on feats. Like spells, I'll come out and tell you there just is no template. While a small portion of our system is formulaic (like Origins), most is just structured (like classes and feats) or narrative/unframed (such as Narrative Control or Cheat Death). Non-formulaic stuff is built as much by designer "gut," examination in context of the play environment, and understanding of other existing mechancial constructs as it is by any numerical calculation. Ultimately, we're not computer programmers, and that's why many folks remain happy to pay us to bring some of our artistry combined with structure to provide fair and balanced rules. But you can see the templates we use in any new Mastercraft unarmed combat feat: 1 benefit + 1 stance on one feat in the chain, and 1 benefit +1 trick in the other 2 feats in the chain. So even if SC3 doesn't deliver the exact level of detail on martial arts straight out the gate, you can certainly feel free to raid the stuff you need from SC2, tweak to fit mastercraft and drop in License to Improvise and get a pretty good approximation for your table's needs Smiley

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rgpandrade
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« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2010, 08:22:11 PM »

Martial arts as presented in the 2.0 or FC book works just fine for a game.

Similarly, for SC3, reducing the gear section to generic firearms would annoy me to no end.

Your complicated martial arts thing works for your table, great. It would annoy mine to no end. Similarly you may be fine with generic weapons, my table and I are not.

If I want exacting and detailed martial arts, I'll play or make a game dedicated to the martial arts genre and world.

I think that both needs can be accomidated by having a simple template with examples.  In the case of firearms stating that "a 9mm has a particular damage type and weighs from this to this" and then giving a specific example allows for someone to come to you as the GM with an idea for a weapon their character would carry and, using the template would make it easier for the details to be worked in as opposed to having to hunt that information down.  For myself I would rather have the template as opposed to the long list Smiley
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rgpandrade
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« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2010, 08:32:26 PM »

I have split this thread as this discussion is in depth enough to drag the original post off topic.

As I have said, your concerns are noted, rgpandrade. And I reiterate that SC3 will not be 500 pages long, and that means some things are by necessity - pretty much everything - is going to have to be cut back. Speaking proportionally, it would follow you could likely not see 34 unarmed combat feats in the core book (outline is not finalized yet), but that doesn't mean they won't be out there eventually.  You've noted you don't care if some more came out later - that's a good thing cause we probably can't fit all of 2.0s stuff in there.

The dance is quite tricky with a game this old. We need to nail a genre that's been a big part of popular fiction since about WWII, accomodating all sorts of styles (lots of intrigue, a single bullet kills to jumping out of the way of explosions caused by orbital mind control lasers). For example, while you really like martial arts but don't appear to care for much detail on guns or cars, there are plenty of other folks who go both ways. And we have to serve both masters with one game that for a whole lot of reasons cannot be the same size as 2.0.  Such is our challenge Smiley

I do agree with you the sidebar on creating approximations of a martial art using the existing feats is useful and would likely stay in. Anything that helps people see the system in practice is a Good Thing in our book. And we're not going to just put 3 unarmed combat feats in the book. But the level of detail and what is core vs. what comes later has to be decided looking at things as a whole.

One other thing from your first post - you ask for a template on feats. Like spells, I'll come out and tell you there just is no template. While a small portion of our system is formulaic (like Origins), most is just structured (like classes and feats) or narrative/unframed (such as Narrative Control or Cheat Death). Non-formulaic stuff is built as much by designer "gut," examination in context of the play environment, and understanding of other existing mechancial constructs as it is by any numerical calculation. Ultimately, we're not computer programmers, and that's why many folks remain happy to pay us to bring some of our artistry combined with structure to provide fair and balanced rules. But you can see the templates we use in any new Mastercraft unarmed combat feat: 1 benefit + 1 stance on one feat in the chain, and 1 benefit +1 trick in the other 2 feats in the chain. So even if SC3 doesn't deliver the exact level of detail on martial arts straight out the gate, you can certainly feel free to raid the stuff you need from SC2, tweak to fit mastercraft and drop in License to Improvise and get a pretty good approximation for your table's needs Smiley




Thank you for your response.  I will wait for the material to come out and not retire my 2.0. just yet if ever.
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« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2010, 09:03:30 PM »

Martial arts as presented in the 2.0 or FC book works just fine for a game.

Similarly, for SC3, reducing the gear section to generic firearms would annoy me to no end.

Your complicated martial arts thing works for your table, great. It would annoy mine to no end. Similarly you may be fine with generic weapons, my table and I are not.

If I want exacting and detailed martial arts, I'll play or make a game dedicated to the martial arts genre and world.

I think that both needs can be accomidated by having a simple template with examples.  In the case of firearms stating that "a 9mm has a particular damage type and weighs from this to this" and then giving a specific example allows for someone to come to you as the GM with an idea for a weapon their character would carry and, using the template would make it easier for the details to be worked in as opposed to having to hunt that information down.  For myself I would rather have the template as opposed to the long list Smiley

Why do you want to spend prep time making up firearms and gear rather then prepping missions? A detailed gear list is far more useful then a generic list. Writing up weapons is far harder then you seem to think (go look in the New Guns thread). Especially since Crafty isn't telling us the formula for converting ballistics to game stats. It doesn't need to be as long as the one in SC2.0, but it needs to be far more then just generic guns.
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