Animal PC Species.

[Morgenstern]

Hold on: superior runner already increases running by one per grade.  So should I add Sure Footed to that, or just give the carrying capacity increase alone in that case?  And I have running increase as worth +1, are you proposing it only be +0.5?

I've never tried to price it as a stand alone effect .

[Mister Andersen]

If you're doing Dinosaurs and other craziness, think of Medium not as a specific height, but rather the average height.

[paddyfool]

On Apes - I think the Beast type isn't as fair for a sentient Ape as for the rest, since unlike most Beasts, they have opposable thumbs etc., and could reasonably be expected to use human or other species' gear.  Should they perhaps be Folk instead?  You could balance the cost of that with some restricted actions - Great Apes other than humans make very poor swimmers, for instance, and tend to have relatively short legs, and not to go in for kicking things much... so restricted actions (Swim, Kick and [something else]) perhaps.

[Catodon]

On Apes - I think the Beast type isn't as fair for a sentient Ape as for the rest, since unlike most Beasts, they have opposable thumbs etc., and could reasonably be expected to use human or other species' gear.  Should they perhaps be Folk instead?  You could balance the cost of that with some restricted actions - Great Apes other than humans make very poor swimmers, for instance, and tend to have relatively short legs, and not to go in for kicking things much... so restricted actions (Swim, Kick and [something else]) perhaps.

Real ape hand are pretty rubbish as hands. Fantasy talking ape hands might be otherwise.

[Catodon]

Huge Dinosaur PCs
I suspect the main reason Truly Massive was cut was so 'out of the box' players could not accidentally create PC's who couldn't venture into the dungeons that are common in fantasy games.
So a dinosaur campiagn is likely to be mostly wilderness, a great environment for big and/or odd. If you write games with player options for your world in mind huge PC's might work. I've seen them work in many other systems anyway, I have close to zero experience actually playing FC.

[paddyfool]

Real ape hand are pretty rubbish as hands. Fantasy talking ape hands might be otherwise.

Depends a little on the ape.  Chimps in the wild sometimes construct and hunt with crude spears, along with other basic tools, and I've learned the hard way that they're very good at throwing rocks.  In captivity, they've been known to use a custom keyboard, draw, paint and drink tea.  Gorillas don't generally do all that, but can draw a bit; generally they have stronger but cruder hands, better for tearing trees apart for nutrients than subtleties.  I don't know so much about Orangs.  But the main RPG question that would apply is "can they hold and use a sword", to which the answer would probably be yes... and definitely yes if you're going for anything Planet of the Apes style.

[Catodon]

Real ape hand are pretty rubbish as hands. Fantasy talking ape hands might be otherwise.

Depends a little on the ape.  Chimps in the wild sometimes construct and hunt with crude spears, along with other basic tools, and I've learned the hard way that they're very good at throwing rocks.  In captivity, they've been known to use a custom keyboard, draw, paint and drink tea.  Gorillas don't generally do all that, but can draw a bit; generally they have stronger but cruder hands, better for tearing trees apart for nutrients than subtleties.  I don't know so much about Orangs.  But the main RPG question that would apply is "can they hold and use a sword", to which the answer would probably be yes... and definitely yes if you're going for anything Planet of the Apes style.

I bow to your experience.

[paddyfool]

I bow to your experience.

Apologies if I entered lecture mode there.

@ Silvercat,

BTW, were you intending for these animal PCs to be able to speak?

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Ah, but if everyone is Huge, it's not really a benefit.  If you're doing dino's most of your players are going to be medium, large, or huge (unless you allow the really large sauropods) so you just pretend they're a size smaller at origin costing time.  Everyone has a boatload of wounds but that's not a real problem.

This isn't intended for an animals-only campaign, so human-sized PCs are definitely a possibility.  And if I convert current Medium into Small then current Tiny becomes Diminutive and might be unbalanced and then I can't also have cats or foxes or eagles as PCs.  It's not a necessary option all the time, it's just right now I'm trying to do all this at the default level of sizes.

I've never tried to price it as a stand alone effect .

Well part of the point of posting this is to get peoples' opinions on pricing some NPC qualities.

So a dinosaur campiagn is likely to be mostly wilderness, a great environment for big and/or odd. If you write games with player options for your world in mind huge PC's might work. I've seen them work in many other systems anyway, I have close to zero experience actually playing FC.

I suppose it might be okay.  Remember that even when it was allowed it cost a whole feat, so PCs with that option would either start out Large anyway, be short 3 build points to pay for the feat, or (a very good idea created by Deral) be required to give up their first career feat automatically in order to free up those 3 extra points needed.

BTW, were you intending for these animal PCs to be able to speak?

I think it would be pretty difficult to have a PC that couldn't communicate.  I mean at least if you're humanoid and can't speak you've got expressive hands and face.

Okay, thanks for all the help so far.  I'll give another shot at these builds.

[paddyfool]

Sorry, just thought I should clarify that.

And on the apes: I think the best candidate for the third restricted action (if you are making them folk) would be something to do with crafting, in order to represent reduced fine manual dexterity.

[snake]

Ah, excellent. I was just about to start working up a Simian Species for my MC: PA campaign and a Lupine Species for my MC:Traveller game (think Vargr). 

But you have beaten me to it done a wonderful job. Thanks, SilverCatMoonPaw et al.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Sorry, just thought I should clarify that.

I've basically assumed it comes standard with the Beast type.

And on the apes: I think the best candidate for the third restricted action (if you are making them folk) would be something to do with crafting, in order to represent reduced fine manual dexterity.

Maybe Prestidigitation instead, since that's supposed to even more represent fine manual dexterity.  Making Craft restricted would cut out building which even low manual dexterity could accomplish, and I think restricting only certain types of crafting wouldn't be enough of a penalty.

[paddyfool]

I thought a little about that, but thought that concealing actions or stashing stuff wouldn't be any trickier for an ape.  However, Disable (from the Prestidigitation actions) would fit just as well as Build or Improve Item, so that should be a good call.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

This is draft 2.  I could really use some help at this point figuring out extra things to give those origins below 7 and things to take away from those above.  Also if anyone wants to correct me on some real-world fact about an animal feel free.

Ape: [7.5]
Medium Folk [ 0 ]
Str +4, Dex -2, Con +2 [3]
Restricted Actions: Kick attacks, Swim and Disable actions [-0.5]
Enlightened Athletics [1]
Enlightened Intimidate [1]
improved sense (scent) [1]
superior climber I [0.5]
sterner stuff [0.5]
Bite I [1]

Bear: [6.5]
Medium Beast [-2]
Str +4, Dex -2, Con +2, Int -2 [4]
Enlightened Intimidate [1]
grappler [0.5]
superior runner I [0.5]
sterner stuff [0.5]
Bite I [1]
Claw I [1]

Grizzly (Species feat):
Large [+1]
Str +2 [+2.5]

Dromedary Camel: [7]
Large Beast [-1]
Con +2, Cha -2 [1]
Pathfinder Basics (desert) [3]
improved stability [1]
superior traveler II [1]
Lean Season [1]
Kick I [1]

Velociraptor: [9.5]
Medium Beast [-2]
Str +2, Dex +2, Int -2 [3]
Spd 50 [2]
improved sense (scent, sight) [2]
superior jumper II [2]
superior runner I [0.5]
Bite I [1]
Kick I [1]

Dog: [7]
Small Beast [-1]
Int -2, Wis +2 [1]
Spd 40 [1]
Crunch! [1]
Enlightened Notice [1]
Enlightened Search [1]
improved sense (hearing, scent) [2]
Bite I [1]

Big Dog (Species feat): [2]
Medium [-1]
Spd 50 [+1]
+2 lower of Int or Str, but -2 Wis [+0.5]
superior traveler I [+0.5]

Eagle: [7]
Tiny Beast [-1]
+2 Dex or Wis, Cha -2 [1]
Spd 20 [-0.5]
Winged flight 40 [2]
Enlightened Search [1]
improved sense (sight) [1]
Bite I [1]
Talon I [1]

Giant Eagle (Species feat): [2.5]
Large [+0]
Wis +2 [+2.5]

Elephant: [9.5]
Large Beast [-1]
Str +2, Con +2 [4.0]
Restricted Actions: Jump, Mask, Sneak [-0.5]
thick hide 3 [2]
improved stability [1]
superior runner I [0.5]
sterner stuff [0.5]
Trample I [1]
Gore I [1]

Donkey: [6.5]
Medium Beast [-2]
Con +2 [2.5]
Low-light vision [1]
Enlightened Resolve [1]
improved sense (sight) [1]
improved stability [1]
Iron Gut [1]
Kick I [1]

Draft Horse: [7.5]
Large Beast [-1]
Str +2, Con +2, Int -2 [3]
Spd 40 [1]
Low-light vision [1]
improved sense (sight) [1]
+50% improved carrying capacity [0.5]
superior traveler II [1]
Kick I [1]

Race Horse: [7.5]
Large Beast [-1]
Dex +2, Int -2 [1]
Spd 50 [2]
Low-light vision [1]
Enlightened Athletics [1]
improved sense (sight) [1]
superior runner II [1]
superior traveler I [0.5]
Kick I [1]

Riding/Wild Horse: [9.5]
Large Beast [-1]
+2 Dex, Con +2, Int -2, Cha -2 [2]
Spd 50 [2]
Low-light vision [1]
Enlightened Athletics [1]
improved sense (sight) [1]
improved stability [1]
superior runner I [0.5]
superior traveler II [1]
Kick I [1]

Mule: [6.5]
Large Beast [-1]
Con +2 [2.5]
Low-light vision [1]
improved sense (sight) [1]
improved stability [1]
superior traveler II [1]
Kick I [1]

Pony: [6.5]
Medium Beast [-2]
Str +2, Con +2, Int -2 [1.5]
Spd 40 [1]
Low-light vision [1]
improved sense (sight) [1]
+50% improved carrying capacity [1]
superior runner I [0.5]
superior traveler III [1.5]
Lean Season [1]
Kick I [1]

Bison: [10]
Large Beast [-1]
Str +2, Con +2, Int -2, Cha -2 [2]
Spd 40 [1]
Low-light vision [1]
Cold Resistance 5 [1]
thick hide 2 [1]
Charging Basics [3]
Gore I [1]
Trample I [1]

Cattle/Oxen: [3]
Large Beast [-1]
Str +4, Dex -2, Int -2, Cha -2 [2]
improved stability [1]
Slam or Gore I [1]

Elk: [8.5]
Large Beast [-1]
Str +2, Int -2, Cha -2 [ 0 ]
Spd 50 [2]
Low-light vision [1]
thick hide 2 [1]
Pathfinder Basics (forest/jungle) [3]
improved sense (hearing) [1]
superior runner I [0.5]
Gore I (male) or Kick I (female) [1]

Goat/Sheep: [-4.5]
Small Beast [-1]
Str -2, Dex -2, Con -2, Int -2, Cha -2 [-5]
superior runner I [0.5]
Slam I [1]

Llama: [6.5]
Medium Beast [-2]
Con +2 [2.5]
Cold Resistance 5 [1]
Pathfinder Basics (caverns/mountains) [3]
superior traveler II [1]
Bite I [1]

Raptor: [7]
Large Beast [-1]
Dex +4, Int -2, Cha -2 [3]
Spd 40 [1]
improved sense (sight) [1]
superior runner I [0.5]
superior traveler I [0.5]
Bite I [1]
Claw I [1]

Tiger: [8]
Large Beast [-1]
Dex +2 [2.5]
Spd 40 [1]
Low-light vision [1]
Enlightened Sneak [1]
Camouflage (forest/jungle) [2]
grappler [0.5]
Bite I [1]

Saber-Tooth (Species feat): [2]
Str +2, Dex -2 [+1]
Cold Resistance 5 [+11]

Wolf: [6.5]
Small Beast [-1]
Dex +2 [2.5]
Enlightened Search [1]
Enlightened Tactics [1]
improved sense (scent) [1]
superior runner II [1]
superior traveler I [0.5]
Bite I [1]

[paddyfool]

Hmm. Restricted actions are worth -1, not -0.5, so that should make a few of these a little easier to balance.

That said, here are some balancing suggestions:

Velociraptor: Give them Reviled (-1) and cut them down to Superior jumper I perhaps?  That takes them to 7.5 - maybe also make them Aloof.

Elephant: Give them Fatal Falls (-0.5), alter their stats to have +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex (2 points rather than 3), and alter the restricted actions to be -1 rather than -0.5.  That takes them to 7.5 too, at which point Aloof is your friend.

Wild horse: Make this a species feat.

I need to go eat something - but good luck with the rest of these!