I don't think he's from around here

[Mister Andersen]

I'm considering a setting where magic is a potent but wild force that in the wrong context can do horrible things to you. As a result, using magic irrevocably turns you into a outsider/you have to be an outsider to use magic.

I know that it's definitely going to affect arcane users, divine ones I'm undecided about so at the moment I'm thinking it's likely going to have to be keyed to having spell points.

How would I best implement this in a balanced fashion. When I look at the outsider type, it seems pretty zero sum -- yes you get that +2 against opposing alignments, but they're going to get it against you, and osing access to the body balances out any particular benefits that might come from lack of aging -- so I was thinking you culd probably get away with having it as a permanent Sorcery campaign sub-quality

[pawsplay]

Actually, the outsider gains extra damage against foes of opposing alignments, but receives the extra damage in return only from opposed outsiders. I think it really depends on how you implement Alignments, and divine casters.

[Mister Andersen]

I've always had in my head that outsiders were particularly vulnerable to damage carrying the opposed alignment.

So, suggestions?

[Sletchman]

Depending on how the campaign handles "banished" and how common aligned attacks are [with your vulnerability addition] - I can totally see outsiders being a 0pt type.   Per the RAW, I'd rate them as a 1pt type.

With zero points you could either slip it into pretty much anything - a Sorcery sup-quality, a micro-origin, part of a spellcasting feat or even as part of specific classes 1st level [Mage and his specialists] without upsetting balance.  The key factor as I see it is the why / how it the connection works, what triggers it, and who can partake in the outsider bond.  Could be as simple as a "corrupting magic" type deal [it doing horrible things to you] just reflavoured as you become an outsider / get possessed by one.

Do you have any more thoughts regarding the setting?  Certainly seems like a cool idea, a kind of faustian bargain thing.

[Desertpuma]

It could become a "virtual" feat or an earned Type. (it could be as simple as a brand that forms on the face but to this PC he has been marked by his Deity/Alignment as a sign of his faith.

I'll think more on this one for later.

[paddyfool]

Like it.  Some feat line that turns you from a Construct an Outsider into a Horror would seem very appropriate as well, for those who want to tread a truly dark path in their sorcery.

[Mister Andersen]

To give folks theidea of the space I'm working in:

Beefy Heroes: The strong must survive the adversities they are pitted against if they are to decide the fate of the meek.
Dramatic Pacing: Things happen when they need to happen and the stars are right.
Fast Feats: Characters learn to develop their capacities quickly as they srive to become masters of Aeon.
Fast Proficiencies: Constant conflict necessitates a broad spectrum of responses.^*
Fear And Loathing: The threats presented by the Lord of Bones, the Legion and the reawakening Kaa are not the only obstacles to a harmonious life. Removing this quality from between even just two of Aeon's species would be a legendary accomplishment.
Larger-Than-Life Heroes: Characters are near demigods striding the world.
Miracles — Beneficent Universe: The ancient powers take an interest in those that pay them fealty.
Miracles — Fickle Universe: Thoglys echoes a universe that is not this one, and the presence of  just its followers represent a distortion of the status quo. Use the quality at the beginning of any scene featuring a character with the Legion alignment to emphasize this.
Miracles — Warring Universe: The powers of Aeon know and respect ancient enmities.
Rare Magic Items: Transferring personal power to an item is an unusual event, making them potent goals when their presence is discovered.
Sorcery — Corrupting Magic: Use this quality any time a special character with the Legion alignment is present in a scene, to represent the perversion of the natural order created through contact with Thoglys.
Sorcery — Potent Magic: The dreams of dragons fuel the understanding they pioneered and passed on to the lesser races.
Sorcery — Wild Magic: The dramatic highs and lows are one of the reasons why sorcery has fallen into disfavor in the face of the Newcomer Enlightenment.
Wire Fu: The world sees high-flying action... literally.



*: I'm actually thinking of just making level-based Interests and Proficiencies interchangable, and you'll get 1 slot per level after 1st that can be filled with either.

[Desertpuma]

Like it.  Some feat line that turns you from a Construct into a Horror would seem very appropriate as well, for those who want to tread a truly dark path in their sorcery.

The more involved you get them rhen rhe more marks slowly appear. However, the more you need it, the higher the Will Save vs Stress is necessary.

[Mister Andersen]

Gandalf was a (magic-using) Outsider who cheated death...

Anyway, it occurred to me that since I'm working with Beneficent Universe:

Path Of Magic
Magic I: You a +2 insight bonus with saves vs. spells. and may Detect Alignment at will. Additionally, as long as you maintain the Alignment granting this path you gain the Outsider type if you do not already possess it, but the Disposition of any character who’s aware of your Path and doesn’t share it worsens by an amount equal to twice your Step.
Magic II: You may cast Detect Magic once per scene and may Read Magic at will.
Magic III: You may cast Counter Magic I once per scene. Also, your bonus with saves vs. spells increases by 2 (total 4).
Magic IV: You may cast Anti-Magic Field once per scene and cast Identify spells without preparation cost.
Magic V: You may cast Counter Magic II once per scene. Also, your bonus with saves vs. spells increases by 2 (total 6).


Arcane classes gain the "Outsider type or Path of Magic I" Requirement

[Desertpuma]

Gandalf was a (magic-using) Outsider who cheated death...

Anyway, it occurred to me that since I'm working with Beneficent Universe:

Path Of Magic
Magic I: You a +2 insight bonus with saves vs. spells. and may Detect Alignment at will. Additionally, as long as you maintain the Alignment granting this path you gain the Outsider type if you do not already possess it, but the Disposition of any character who’s aware of your Path and doesn’t share it worsens by an amount equal to twice your Step.
Magic II: You may cast Detect Magic once per scene and may Read Magic at will.
Magic III: You may cast Counter Magic I once per scene. Also, your bonus with saves vs. spells increases by 2 (total 4).
Magic IV: You may cast Anti-Magic Field once per scene and cast Identify spells without preparation cost.
Magic V: You may cast Counter Magic II once per scene. Also, your bonus with saves vs. spells increases by 2 (total 6).


Arcane classes gain the "Outsider type or Path of Magic I" Requirement

Gotta say, I like this.

[Sletchman]

Arcane classes gain the "Outsider type or Path of Magic I" Requirement

You know you could just have Arcane classes require Outsider - it'd have the same net effect with the way you've written the first step.  Other then that looks pretty good.

[Mister Andersen]

That's more to serve as a reminder that there are ways other than species feats to pick up the type and that you can take levels in arcane classes without necessarily folowing the path.

[Sletchman]

That's more to serve as a reminder that there are ways other than species feats to pick up the type and that you can take levels in arcane classes without necessarily folowing the path.

Fair enough, you certainly know your players better then I do.

I'm curious how you're going to rule multiple types?  I'm guessing just adding the type on - becoming a Folk/Outsider, or a Construct/Outsider?

[Mister Andersen]

As far as I'm aware, you just keep adding types as you acquire them: you've have to have an option specificaly replace an existing type with a new one to lose it.