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Author Topic: "Steampunk Sorcerers"?  (Read 3239 times)
ludomastro
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« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2010, 11:40:46 PM »

Perhaps I can be of service:

FC is big on re-skinning an idea to make it work within the existing rules.  For example, if my player asked if he could have an area ice effect rather than a fireball, I would probably just use the fireball spell and call for a fortitude save (against cold) in lieu of a reflex save (to NOT catch on fire).  Not perfect, but reasonable.

Applying that large scale, you could rework the spells to pull in the fluff elements that you would like to have.  Riffing on the Industrial era, I would use Lighting Bolt I as the aforementioned lightning gun. However, said gun would ONLY work in the hands of a Mage (the character class in the book).  That way, you could use the existing rules for a spellcaster.

Alternatively, you could give a character mad ranks in Crafting and take the appropriate feats and viola, an artificer that is churning out time-sleds or whatnot as magic items (using those rules).  The class of said character wouldn't even need be the Mage class in the book; however, she could be called a mage by the populous.

----~~~----~~~

More to your specific question, no, there aren't really rules for blending science and technology.  However, with a little sleep and some thought, I am sure I could help you put something together that doesn't go too far afield from the printed rules.

I hope that helps and if not, please let me know how I can help.

- ludomastro
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 03:54:16 AM by ludomastro » Logged

Sletchman
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« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2010, 05:57:34 AM »

Lightning Gun can also just be any old gun with it's damage type changed to Electricity [costs about 15 rep iirc].

If you have it [or have a spare couple of bucks] - check out the Seer from spycraft, I think you'll like what you see.  Otherwise wait a couple months for spellbound and have a look at the FC version then.
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Morfedel
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« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2010, 06:58:11 AM »

Yeah, I don't have SC. I'll have to wait for Spellbound.

As for the reskinning... I suppose that works, but it doesn't have the same feel as alternate rules - like psionics, for instance: If it's mechanically identical to magic, it isn't really different at all.

And I suppose that's what I mean. If it's supposed to be fairly different from Magic, it should be mechanically different too. Anyone can reskin, it just feels lmore like houseruling than official rules. Anyone can house rule, and I have no problem with that, but I prefer official mechanical support where possible.

Hm, however. I think I might be able to reskin the path system for telepaths, TKs, etc. Or blend that and magic in some fashion. I'll have to give it some thought.
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« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2010, 07:43:37 AM »

Yeah, I don't have SC. I'll have to wait for Spellbound.

As for the reskinning... I suppose that works, but it doesn't have the same feel as alternate rules - like psionics, for instance: If it's mechanically identical to magic, it isn't really different at all.

And I suppose that's what I mean. If it's supposed to be fairly different from Magic, it should be mechanically different too. Anyone can reskin, it just feels lmore like houseruling than official rules. Anyone can house rule, and I have no problem with that, but I prefer official mechanical support where possible.

Hm, however. I think I might be able to reskin the path system for telepaths, TKs, etc. Or blend that and magic in some fashion. I'll have to give it some thought.

I really dig the steampunk style, and am actually waiting for Spellbound to see the Seer, and his spell list [and any expert classes], after which I will see what I can build at that point.  Gear for the Ages will be another important product, because unfortunately there isn't a lot of industrial stuff in the core FC book.
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« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2010, 07:49:56 AM »

Yeah, I don't have SC. I'll have to wait for Spellbound.

As for the reskinning... I suppose that works, but it doesn't have the same feel as alternate rules - like psionics, for instance: If it's mechanically identical to magic, it isn't really different at all.

And I suppose that's what I mean. If it's supposed to be fairly different from Magic, it should be mechanically different too. Anyone can reskin, it just feels lmore like houseruling than official rules. Anyone can house rule, and I have no problem with that, but I prefer official mechanical support where possible.

Hm, however. I think I might be able to reskin the path system for telepaths, TKs, etc. Or blend that and magic in some fashion. I'll have to give it some thought.

I really dig the steampunk style, and am actually waiting for Spellbound to see the Seer, and his spell list [and any expert classes], after which I will see what I can build at that point.  Gear for the Ages will be another important product, because unfortunately there isn't a lot of industrial stuff in the core FC book.

And what exactly IS the Seer, anyway?
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aegis
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« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2010, 08:04:35 AM »

A mage specialized in the Word, Artifice, and Divination Disciplines. A lot of his abilities/spells are turned toward tinkering and affecting items and constructs with magic. He'd make an excellent steampunk mage indeed.
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Crafty_Alex
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« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2010, 09:02:56 AM »

What I meant was, some kind of separate rules governing sorcery and science. For example, iron kingdoms; their mechanika was more than simply the sum of its parts.

Having done some work in that system for Privateer in years back, my opinion of the mechanika system was simply a more elaborate, difficult-to-use magic item crafting system that put charges on everything. Smiley I believe the current magic item system works quite well to represent most mechanikal items, as most of that gear ended up being "base item + single effect" with that effect being an alternative damage type or what have you. Paying Rep for these items replaces paying XP to do schematics, then building the plates, etc etc. The rest is the color of the paint - and our system is designed to take whatever color you want Wink

If you wanted to make magic item creation seem more in depth, you could always treat Building as a Complex Downtime task - for example, instead of making 1 roll then multiplying by the amount of downtime period, you could roll for each portion of that period and apply setbacks and so on at each phase. For example, I have 5 weeks, I don't roll on the chart, compare to the W line, then multiply by 5 - instead I make 5 Crafting checks, 1 for each W, to see how much I create. Each challenge could represent a different task of mechanika building (#1 - draw schematics, #2, build plates, #3 - design battery, etc.) as well. While this introduces the chances of errors and makes for more rolling, it also gives you a chance of threats and increased speed in construction - you wouldn't be beholden to a single crummy roll this way. Does that spark some ideas?
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« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2010, 09:11:01 AM »

... If it's mechanically identical to magic, it isn't really different at all. ...
I've never really thought of psionics as being different from magic.

Down in, I think, License to Improvise, the Star Wars thread is going again with the Force being Edge and not Spellpoints.  Might Edge work for psionics?
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« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2010, 09:40:03 AM »

What I meant was, some kind of separate rules governing sorcery and science. For example, iron kingdoms; their mechanika was more than simply the sum of its parts.

Having done some work in that system for Privateer in years back, my opinion of the mechanika system was simply a more elaborate, difficult-to-use magic item crafting system that put charges on everything. Smiley I believe the current magic item system works quite well to represent most mechanikal items, as most of that gear ended up being "base item + single effect" with that effect being an alternative damage type or what have you. Paying Rep for these items replaces paying XP to do schematics, then building the plates, etc etc. The rest is the color of the paint - and our system is designed to take whatever color you want Wink

If you wanted to make magic item creation seem more in depth, you could always treat Building as a Complex Downtime task - for example, instead of making 1 roll then multiplying by the amount of downtime period, you could roll for each portion of that period and apply setbacks and so on at each phase. For example, I have 5 weeks, I don't roll on the chart, compare to the W line, then multiply by 5 - instead I make 5 Crafting checks, 1 for each W, to see how much I create. Each challenge could represent a different task of mechanika building (#1 - draw schematics, #2, build plates, #3 - design battery, etc.) as well. While this introduces the chances of errors and makes for more rolling, it also gives you a chance of threats and increased speed in construction - you wouldn't be beholden to a single crummy roll this way. Does that spark some ideas?

Well, this is the point. If you are just going to say all you news to do is reskin magic for mechanika / steampunk and psionics, why have a separate system for divine power? After all, d&d actually had a closer relationship systematically between divine and arcane magic than FC does. By your argument, they should have just reskinned the arcane magic instead of making a different system.

By the same.token, why even bother with a Spellbound book? And that's the point. If It's different enough to justify a different system for divine magic, I certainly think the same is true of psionics and steampunk magic items.

Another point: if an enchanter can likewise make. +1 sword or a +1 pistol, it isn't really different. And just saying it looks different isn't really making it different. A mechanikal spider or a clockwork staff should be different, in some fashion, than the traditional arcane version. Otherwise, what's the point of having separate divine and arcane power system if it doesn't matter how It's dressed?

I'm not saying I want mechanika or steampunk to be more complex; IK is too complex. I don't want it more or less powerful. I just want it different.
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« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2010, 09:41:41 AM »

... If it's mechanically identical to magic, it isn't really different at all. ...
I've never really thought of psionics as being different from magic.

Down in, I think, License to Improvise, the Star Wars thread is going again with the Force being Edge and not Spellpoints.  Might Edge work for psionics?

I don't know what edge is, but I haven't finished reading the FC book yet. Friend of mine let's me borrow it, I don't own it yet, heh.
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« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2010, 11:18:17 AM »

SKinning does have limitations. The question is does the setting-specific presentation you want to achieve have mechanical consequences worth modeling? With mechanika, I can imagine that it does. You can use the spell library of effects, but make some adjustments to how those effects are accessed - that's how both Paths and Constellations work: new ways to access the library.

I am not a Warmachine/Iron Kingdoms guru (though my first book is in the mail now Smiley). Aside from a preponderance of constructs at your beck and call, what are the things you see as being distinctive about the mechanika experience? What can it accomplish? What prices must be paid? Knowing how its supposed to feel in setting is the first step towards assigning or altering mechanics to create that sensation in play. Skinning is probably the single most powerful tool, but it's not the only arrow in the quiver.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 02:12:48 PM by Morgenstern » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2010, 12:27:54 PM »

SKinning does have limitations. The question is dooes the setting-specific presnetation you want to acieve have mechanical consequences worth modeling. With mechanika, I can imagine that it does. You can use the spell lirary off effect but make someadjustments to how those effects are accessed - that's how both Paths and Constellations work: new ways to access the library.

I am not a Warmachine/Iron Kingdoms guru (though my firt book is in the mail now Smiley). Aside from a preponderance of constructs at your beck and call, what are the things you see as being distinctive about the mechanika experience? What can it accomplish? What prices must be paid? Knowing how its supposed to feel in setting is the first step towards assigning or altering mechanics to create that sensation in play. Skinning is probably the single most powerful tool, but it's not the only arrow in the quiver.

I think I see the problem now.

I'm not talking about a setting where steampunk is the only magic; much like today, where parts of.our world still has primitive tribes still in loincloths and using spears, this is a world where there will be societies with advanced science with magic blended in, while others will still be practicing traditional sorcery, with the rules as written.

As such, just saying "mage A has a fireball wand, while mage B has a fireball pistol... which behaves in every way like mage As fireball wand" just isn't sufficient.
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« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2010, 01:56:36 PM »

I don't think you do.

How do you want them to feel or be different?

Remember they need to have comperable effects and total costs to remain balanced.
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Crafty_Alex
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« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2010, 02:29:22 PM »

What I meant was, some kind of separate rules governing sorcery and science. For example, iron kingdoms; their mechanika was more than simply the sum of its parts.

Having done some work in that system for Privateer in years back, my opinion of the mechanika system was simply a more elaborate, difficult-to-use magic item crafting system that put charges on everything. Smiley I believe the current magic item system works quite well to represent most mechanikal items, as most of that gear ended up being "base item + single effect" with that effect being an alternative damage type or what have you. Paying Rep for these items replaces paying XP to do schematics, then building the plates, etc etc. The rest is the color of the paint - and our system is designed to take whatever color you want Wink

If you wanted to make magic item creation seem more in depth, you could always treat Building as a Complex Downtime task - for example, instead of making 1 roll then multiplying by the amount of downtime period, you could roll for each portion of that period and apply setbacks and so on at each phase. For example, I have 5 weeks, I don't roll on the chart, compare to the W line, then multiply by 5 - instead I make 5 Crafting checks, 1 for each W, to see how much I create. Each challenge could represent a different task of mechanika building (#1 - draw schematics, #2, build plates, #3 - design battery, etc.) as well. While this introduces the chances of errors and makes for more rolling, it also gives you a chance of threats and increased speed in construction - you wouldn't be beholden to a single crummy roll this way. Does that spark some ideas?

Well, this is the point. If you are just going to say all you news to do is reskin magic for mechanika / steampunk and psionics, why have a separate system for divine power? After all, d&d actually had a closer relationship systematically between divine and arcane magic than FC does. By your argument, they should have just reskinned the arcane magic instead of making a different system.

OK. Hold on a sec.

1) I think psionics is different. I never told you magic=psionics, otherwise I wouldn't have been dabbling with a whole new rules system for them.
2) Divine magic is different in our system in how it is gained and used, not the spells. In D&D, aside from the declared source and classes which use it, divine magic as a system is identical to arcane magic. Our system actually draws a stronger contrast between the two than D&D does.
3) Are we even talking magic as in spellcasting, or magic as in magic items? The lines in the last point are becoming blurred.

Quote
By the same.token, why even bother with a Spellbound book? And that's the point. If It's different enough to justify a different system for divine magic, I certainly think the same is true of psionics and steampunk magic items.

Spellbound is not redefining how magic (as in spells that you can cast, and the people who cast them) works in Fantasy Craft. It is expanding it. Nothing to do with magic items.

Ignore what everyone else has said on psionics - psionics, when they come out, will not be spells in a different color of paint. I am the only one in this conversation who can say that definitively, so you can set that one aside Smiley

Quote
I'm not saying I want mechanika or steampunk to be more complex; IK is too complex. I don't want it more or less powerful. I just want it different.

So the nugget of your point is, you think we need to do a seperate magic item system specifically for techno-magical items built in the Industrial era. Am I understanding you correctly?

If so, what, specifically, do you think that should contain? What does the basic magic item creation system not do already that your ideal system would need to do for it to feel different enough? I have offered a solution of making the process of crafting seem more involved, with a way to call out individual tasks in the building process but I can't keep throwing ideas blindly at what your shooting for without a better idea of what you think would make something like this "feel different" in the way you expect.

My experience is "different just to be different" leads to a) angry players who don't want to learn another path to the exact same result, or worse b) confused players who can't rectify the best path for them to get to the solution they want. Anything I as a publisher produce will need to be justifiably, workably different with a good, attractive reason for players to bother to learn it.
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« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2010, 02:30:03 PM »

I don't think you do.

How do you want them to feel or be different?

Remember they need to have comperable effects and total costs to remain balanced.

Answer the same questuon in regards to arcane vs divine power. I don't see why that is viable, but what I'm asking isn't.
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