Keen on Crits

[Sicktabou]

Hello all!


I don't plan to use the critical injuries and massive damages rules in my game (personal choice...and on less table to worry about). This said, I was wondering if anyone ever tried to have KEEN weapons add their damage to critical hits...

It would fit the KEEN description well as I see vitality damage as a serie of little cuts and some close misses where wounds damage (aka critical hits) as true hits to the body.

I am mostly concerned about the balance issue. Would keen weapons become too powerful if their damage would be added to critical hits?


Thanks

[Mister Andersen]

Keen weapons always add their value to the damage they do, regardless of whether it's to wounds or vitality, for purposes of calculating whether or not an attack has passed the critical injury or massive damage threshold.

Of course, by the time a critical hit has crossed that threshold, chances are pretty good you've been reduced  to 0 or fewer wounds anyhow.

[Krensky]

I am mostly concerned about the balance issue. Would keen weapons become too powerful if their damage would be added to critical hits?

Yes, it's very overpowered.

[ArawnNox]

Since most PCs wont have more than 12-14 Wounds and some weapons have a keen rating as high as 10 (or get that high due to class abilities, not sure which offhand), then yes, I agree, very overpowered.

[Atr]

Maybe adding keen damage to vitalitys and normal damage to wounds?
Still seems too dangerous for low level pc's.

[Nova]

A big potential problem is escalation. I won't go into "if the npcs all have keen" because you're just staring at probable TPK's, but when all the players have it, if its added to damage on a crit?

We're already seeing somewhat of an issue regarding non-subdual/stress damage at higher levels. Its easier to beat someone unconcious than it is to run them through with a sword even if they're just standing there. Vitality on special NPCs explodes as TL and health grades go up, and wounds start getting layer upon layer of Tough to make all those big juicy critical abilities feel absolutely worthless, because you'll be expending all those 1/scene and action dice just to do nothing whatsoever.

The group I run for is doing rather well after I changed Tough to "fat stacks of extra wounds while you still have vitality". Still trying to figure where's a good spot for it though... 20 still feels a little off. My own GM agreed to come up with a similar modification, after realising I had it on an item (though there's so many crits in our games its nowhere near as breaking as it could be to some groups).

With THAT up and about (and available to players), though, keen to wounds on crits can work just fine. Though you may see a moderate increase in the number of Grizzled or Svelte humans in your game.

[Krensky]

From my experience, if you're having those problems. You're using too many special npcs and making them too tough.

[Nova]

Doesn't take much though there's plenty of it to be found in chapter 6. Part of my argument was the vitality that accompanies things though. It cancels confirmed crits (which usually cost action dice), not the threat. So you KNOW what's coming and can just not-activate when a sling'll take d4 wounds, keeping it for the claymore strike a round later.

 Something with Tough II is probably not gonna get crit in a regular battle with most groups. Something with IV requires high expenditure from some very crit-dedicated builds, which have no reason to bother when everyone'll be better off knocking it silly, as somehow dazing or stressing it out is easy despite it being extremely difficult to even harm the thing.

The bigger issue, to me, though, is that it takes those special "nat 20! and I've got some action dice!" moments and smacks a "oh,  nice, and those action dice on dama... 50, very impressive... well, that does nothing" on it. NOT confirming becomes more effective than paying to confirm a crit, and using a sap becomes far more effective at taking something out than shooting it square in the head. Even tough 1 is just.. well, a dick move. Its like "no, rocks fall and you get no save".

With Tough as extra wound stacks, It keeps them alive like tough should, but without just being a "screw you". It also makes it far less valuable to a player that has it as an essence, as that table's really all over the place for 'what they're worth' anyways.
 Alternatively, have it cancel the threat (as in "you can't confirm it x times") instead. But I had to come up with something.

[Doublebond]

Why are you using tough so much, again?

[Krensky]

Once again...

It sounds like you're using special NPCs too often, and over using tough, or both.

Instead of using Special NPCs to be 'hard' consider them more from a narrative perspective.

[ArawnNox]

The bigger issue, to me, though, is that it takes those special "nat 20! and I've got some action dice!" moments and smacks a "oh,  nice, and those action dice on dama... 50, very impressive... well, that does nothing" on it. NOT confirming becomes more effective than paying to confirm a crit, and using a sap becomes far more effective at taking something out than shooting it square in the head. Even tough 1 is just.. well, a dick move. Its like "no, rocks fall and you get no save".

This was precisely my problem with Darkest Hour; Just about everything had at least one level of Tough. It cheapened the cinematic feel of the game, made the fights arbitrarily tougher than they should have been, etc etc etc. When I construct NPCs that are to be a challenge to my players, I try to find other ways of making them able to stand up to punishment. When I do resort to using Tough, I try to keep it to one or two grades at most.

[Krensky]

Tough is also a very different beat on a standard character then a special. I'm far more careful about it on specials over standards.

[Gentry]

The bigger issue, to me, though, is that it takes those special "nat 20! and I've got some action dice!" moments and smacks a "oh,  nice, and those action dice on dama... 50, very impressive... well, that does nothing" on it. NOT confirming becomes more effective than paying to confirm a crit, and using a sap becomes far more effective at taking something out than shooting it square in the head. Even tough 1 is just.. well, a dick move. Its like "no, rocks fall and you get no save".

This was precisely my problem with Darkest Hour; Just about everything had at least one level of Tough. It cheapened the cinematic feel of the game, made the fights arbitrarily tougher than they should have been, etc etc etc. When I construct NPCs that are to be a challenge to my players, I try to find other ways of making them able to stand up to punishment. When I do resort to using Tough, I try to keep it to one or two grades at most.

I'm curious to hear more details of how your table played out. As written, there's only one creature in TDH that has tough ranks. Of course, it's a hell of a creature...

[ArawnNox]

The bigger issue, to me, though, is that it takes those special "nat 20! and I've got some action dice!" moments and smacks a "oh,  nice, and those action dice on dama... 50, very impressive... well, that does nothing" on it. NOT confirming becomes more effective than paying to confirm a crit, and using a sap becomes far more effective at taking something out than shooting it square in the head. Even tough 1 is just.. well, a dick move. Its like "no, rocks fall and you get no save".

This was precisely my problem with Darkest Hour; Just about everything had at least one level of Tough. It cheapened the cinematic feel of the game, made the fights arbitrarily tougher than they should have been, etc etc etc. When I construct NPCs that are to be a challenge to my players, I try to find other ways of making them able to stand up to punishment. When I do resort to using Tough, I try to keep it to one or two grades at most.

I'm curious to hear more details of how your table played out. As written, there's only one creature in TDH that has tough ranks. Of course, it's a hell of a creature...

Check "Chronicles of the West" under the 'Fiction and Story Hour' section. That has the gameplay in it. I changed the adventure half way through to accommodate what happened for the players.
... and as I go back through my notes I realize I made a massive screw-up. Since I was new to the system I must have forgot what Monsterous Defense did and equated it to Tough... I feel dumb. However, Monsterous Defense is still redundant on pre-errata undead anyway...