[Notebook] Building New Origins: Attribute Modifiers

[pawsplay]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say, but it is absolutely true that lacking a bonus that everyone else has is the same as a penalty.

[glimmerrat]

What am I trying to say? Ok, i'll break it down for you:

You're wrong.

A lack of a bonus is not the same as a penalty. Trying to justify that 0 is the same as -1 is wrong. I don't care how 'relative' it is. That's simple math.

By the same token, a lack of a bonus will be irrelevant for the most part of any game, unless your GC is an asshole that enjoys punishing players for having attribute scores that don't grant a significant bonus.

A Mage with Strength 10, if played correctly and supported well will very rarely ever have to worry about being grappled or bull rushed, because the enemy won't have the opportunity to get close enough. He won't need to worry about moving heavy weights, because that's what the people with higher Strength scores do.

Incidentally you asked for an opinion. I gave you mine. If you don't like it, disregard it.

[Deral]

What am I trying to say? Ok, i'll break it down for you:

You're wrong.

A lack of a bonus is not the same as a penalty. Trying to justify that 0 is the same as -1 is wrong. I don't care how 'relative' it is. That's simple math.

Well that's a little unnecessarily hostile, don't you think? I think this is all a misunderstanding.

The idea pawsplay is putting forth is that a penalty no one else has is the same as the lack of a bonus everyone has, this does not mean 0 = -1, but rather being a 0 in a room full of 1's is the same as being a -1 in a room full of 0's.

Another good example is suggestion some people made for Iconic Classes, rather than having an Elf Burglar start with 2 fewer action dice, lower action dice by 2 across the board, give humans and non-iconic-class-bearing races some other quality that grants them 2 extra action dice, and give the same bonus only to Elven Sages and Scouts, a lack of bonus in place of a penalty.

[Wolverine]

Another good example is suggestion some people made for Iconic Classes, rather than having an Elf Burglar start with 2 fewer action dice, lower action dice by 2 across the board, give humans and non-iconic-class-bearing races some other quality that grants them 2 extra action dice, and give the same bonus only to Elven Sages and Scouts, a lack of bonus in place of a penalty.

The point of Races, Talents, and Specialities, however, is that all characters start out with the same sum total of bonuses and negatives. Sure, some choices may appear to be more or less 'good' than the others, but that just means you need to think about what you get from that choice in a different way. Also, not all choices will be good for all types of games. Picking a Race with Reviled would be much more of a penalty in a game featuring a lot of social conflict with different Races, while the Corsiar Talent would be somewhat hobbled in a campaign that goes nowhere near water.

On the flip side, a good player could turn such choices into an advantage through good roleplaying.

[Deral]

Another good example is suggestion some people made for Iconic Classes, rather than having an Elf Burglar start with 2 fewer action dice, lower action dice by 2 across the board, give humans and non-iconic-class-bearing races some other quality that grants them 2 extra action dice, and give the same bonus only to Elven Sages and Scouts, a lack of bonus in place of a penalty.

The point of Races, Talents, and Specialities, however, is that all characters start out with the same sum total of bonuses and negatives. Sure, some choices may appear to be more or less 'good' than the others, but that just means you need to think about what you get from that choice in a different way. Also, not all choices will be good for all types of games. Picking a Race with Reviled would be much more of a penalty in a game featuring a lot of social conflict with different Races, while the Corsiar Talent would be somewhat hobbled in a campaign that goes nowhere near water.

On the flip side, a good player could turn such choices into an advantage through good roleplaying.

I didn't have any intention of commenting on the exact instance of whatever it is you were all talking about, I was just clarifying that the base idea of bonuses and penalties is relative, if I implied something about the sheer numerical side of origins, I apologize.

[glimmerrat]

Well that's a little unnecessarily hostile, don't you think? I think this is all a misunderstanding.

No, it isn't. I didn't use foul language. I didn't insult him or his opinion. This isn't trolling. If you think this is hostile then you should go check some of the 'discussions' on RPG.net, Dumpshock or 4chan. If someone engages me in a debate then they should expect me to defend my opinion.

This was said to be as clear as possible. I don't care what your context is, this is a discussion about which attribute it would be most painless to have a 10 in. He asked for an opinion and got it. He then tried to show - using flawed logic - that my opinion is wrong. If this is all relative, then so is the assertion that a penalty is the same as no bonus at all.

In a party of Mages, is the lone Soldier at a penalty because he can't cast spells? In a sense, yes. However, his skill set lies elsewhere. In melee combat the Mages suck, but he shines. By the same token a character with, for example, a low Charisma, will suffer in a social situation relative to his party, but excel in others where he had the opportunity to spend the points he saved.

[Crafty_Pat]

Alright guys - it's pretty clear this line of discussion isn't going anywhere. Please find a new (productive) direction or we'll have to press pause on this one.

[glimmerrat]

Alright guys - it's pretty clear this line of discussion isn't going anywhere. Please find a new (productive) direction or we'll have to press pause on this one.

Agreed.

[Agent 333]

I would like it if someone commented on my original assertion that +3/+3/-3 is WAAY better than just +3 and costing the same number of origin build points is flawed math.

[Sletchman]

I would like it if someone commented on my original assertion that +3/+3/-3 is WAAY better than just +3 and costing the same number of origin build points is flawed math.

In general, I agree, but in the case of Orcs [or any one else with the -3 to Int] I don't.  But then I also think that any alteration to stats has a different value depending on the stat in question.  Can I support that with maths or anything beyond a gut feeling?  No, not really.

[Brakk]

I have the following situation:

+2 (Specific A), +2 (Specific B), +2 (Specific C), -2 (Specific D), -2 (Specific E), -2 (Specific F)

How many points would this be?

[Agent 333]

I have the following situation:

+2 (Specific A), +2 (Specific B), +2 (Specific C), -2 (Specific D), -2 (Specific E), -2 (Specific F)

How many points would this be?

By my math, it'd be 3 points. I'd like to see some other method's answer though...

[Sletchman]

By my highly complex and scientific method of "gut reaction" I'd call it at 3pts too, for what it's worth.

[Blankbeard]

I come out with 3.25, which would be 3 design points.  Morgenstern apparently agrees with you guys since he edited it into the first post at 3 points.

[Morgenstern]

I would like it if someone commented on my original assertion that +3/+3/-3 is WAAY better than just +3 and costing the same number of origin build points is flawed math.

Some things to understand about how that comes about: each design point value has a range associated with it - none of the combinations are exactly as good as any other, so you're dealing with a process of grouping. In my initial post they are listed in ascending order of awesome within each bracket. Further, the brackets get "wider" as the cost goes up - the difference between best and worst of possible 2 point combinations is smaller than the gap between best and worst of 3 point combinations, and 4 point combinations have by far the widest range possible. That's one reason the chart stops there.

Unbalanced combination pay a premium. Combinations with no down side pay an additional premium. That means that +3/nuthin' is paying the highest possible rate for those 3 points. You'll notice its virtually the top of the list - the single weakest benefit that costs 4 point. Now scan down. Oh look, +3/+3/-3. THE most potent package the system allows and the highest rated combination found in official materials.