Summary of Differences Bwtween FC and D&D

[Morfedel]

Ok, so I am working on buying me a copy of the FC reprint and, while I'm at it, I wanted to provide for my online players of mine a summary of the differences between FC and D&D. Does anyone know if such a beast exists?

[Blankbeard]

Here's a http://www.crafty-games.com/forum/index.php?topic=4006.0 from a couple of weeks ago.

Mechanically, it's D20 taken apart, cleaned, and rebalanced.  VP/Wounds instead of hit points, spell points instead of spell slots, priests are divine power specialists not healers with spells.  Min/maxing isn't as important and comes with trade offs.  Mages can heal, most abilities stack, and warriors aren't big dumb piles of feats.  Different damage types do different things.  Non-spellcasters don't suck.

D&D is first and foremost a dungeon crawl with some rules to other things.  FC has more social and non-combat systems.  FC has more narrative control and design space for different archetypes, both character and world.  Killing something isn't always the answer.  FC has story based rewards and strict limits on the number of magical items you can have.  Magical items aren't needed to compete at high levels.

[Morfedel]

Here's a http://www.crafty-games.com/forum/index.php?topic=4006.0 from a couple of weeks ago.

Mechanically, it's D20 taken apart, cleaned, and rebalanced.  VP/Wounds instead of hit points, spell points instead of spell slots, priests are divine power specialists not healers with spells.  Min/maxing isn't as important and comes with trade offs.  Mages can heal, most abilities stack, and warriors aren't big dumb piles of feats.  Different damage types do different things.  Non-spellcasters don't suck.

D&D is first and foremost a dungeon crawl with some rules to other things.  FC has more social and non-combat systems.  FC has more narrative control and design space for different archetypes, both character and world.  Killing something isn't always the answer.  FC has story based rewards and strict limits on the number of magical items you can have.  Magical items aren't needed to compete at high levels.

Just FYI, your like goes to http://thread/ , heh!

[Blankbeard]

Eh, did it backwards.  Here

[Morfedel]

Eh, did it backwards.  Here

I figgered it out, heh, but I just wanted to let ya know.

[Desertpuma]

Don't forget about Campaign Qualities plus all the other Base Classes like Captain, Courtier, and the ExC Beastmaster.

Most D&D base classes end up as Specialties/Origins in FC. There are no Bards but you can have the Specialty.

FC is about a multitude of objectives being available in the toolbox and letting you choose what you want to use.

[Nova]

There are a few things FC does lose out on, although a few of these may be subjective. Not wanting to hate on it or anything, but I want to at least point out a few things that D&D, especially older stuff like AD&D, did have going for it.

1) Immense support.  This isn't a stab at the Crafty guys. But, there's not anywhere remotely near the amount of first and third-party goodies, reworks, extras, adventures, settings, and so on as you did for just about any given edition of D&D. You just CAN'T.

 This is something pathfinder managed to grab for itself by the way, comparatively. The masses of support. Of course with it come the grappling rules, but to each their own.

2) Very specific fluff. One of the things you gain from not making it as a toolbox is delicious crunchiness. Not the numerical kind, though that's there, but I'm talking stuff like class books. The AD&D 2e class books were a joy to read. Tons upon tons of things that weren't class templates and abilities. Having a few hundred pages of "this is what this class/group/region is like. This is what they might think. This is how they view these things. These are things that like them"

3) Randomness in character design.  With Fantasy Craft, you can come up with a concept, and start working towards it. This is fun. But, AD&D and Hackmaster are two systems where if you do that, you may find yourself very very sad. Score 1 for Fantasy Craft? Not so fast!

 Some people don't LIKE to have to come up with everything and plan it all. Sometimes you just like to bloody ROLL. Sometimes, you can find great enjoyment in seeing what the dice come up with. Sure you might end up spending half a dozen CPs trying to kill the bugger with training accidents because you'd rather not run a fighter with 12 strength as his highest stat by 4+, but its great to see what becomes of your blank slate.

 You may deride "rolling if mommy and daddy loved you", but you can't deny that it along with the flaws,etc sure shapes a personality, and better yet a reason for adventuring (let's face it adventurers are pretty much all crazy in some way). That can lead to far more awesome characters than "special snowflake #31: Darkraven Blacksword of Shadowhoods the dualwielder". Although there IS a generator for those nowadays.

4) Set progression. This may seem odd, again, but you know what? sometimes its pretty fun to know "This is my character's profession. This is how its gonna be for the most part". The mage is a mage, the fighter's a fighter, the cleric's a cleric. Fantasy Craft gives a lot more levelling options, but that can just slow things down with indecision.

 Again, these are differences, not so much "FC is inferior because". After all, this stuff can cut both ways. Random generation means your buddy could roll 3 18's and you've go as many 3's. Support-material with the Kaiju template can bring in a hell of a headache when you realise most of this stuff's horrifyingly imbalanced in one way or another (and not always on the 'overpowered' side either), some of the settings are just plain bad and every damn thing has fanboys that insist you have it in YOUR campaign too. Some of which could be your players.

But they ARE differences, and they CAN be good things that the other side of the coin has going for it. Hell I still play AD&D!

Edit: I swear it felt like I only typed for a minute...

[EloiseCartwright]

1) Fair Enough, though most folks I know get put off D&D for the sheer amount of crap there is for it. When you're not really part of a gaming community how do you know the good from the not?
2) Use the fluff from your AD&D books, it ain't difficult to migrate.
3) I come and go with Randomness, tend to play WFRP when the random character need strikes. That said, it uses the same range as any other d20, if you want random stats and your GM agrees, go for it.
One poster, I forget who, did a random stat generation using playing cards to even make it a lot more balanced.
4) Well, yeah, don't agree, but if that's your thing.

[Desertpuma]

Well, let's see..

1. Big difference in the companies too. Crafty is 3 guys, only 2 of which actually do the writing compared with a staff 3 times that in TSR then WOTC and now Hasbro.

2. A lot of gaming books have "fluff". Steve Jackson Games always does a lot of research for their books so the "fluff" there is great. As was said just above: Use the "fluff", even if it is just an idea. Hell, Crafty Alex is using the 1st Ed D&D mods for his home FC campaign.

3. Who say you can't just roll the dice for your stats. Since 3E many people love the idea of Point Buy which was necessary for the Living campaigns so everyone started off on equal footing stat wise with the same amount of points. Most players prefer especially when they suck at rolling up stats.

4. I don't get where you are having trouble with this part. I really don't. Pick your class, if you want to change to another class at the next level then do so. The number of leveling options are really not that different. Crafty actually has fewer than all the books fo 3E and 3.5 combined.

Now one change I do intend to make for my home game, which is different from the Living campaigns, is making the PCs map out the dungeon. That's right. The PCs should map out the dungeon. How else will they get out? There is no deus ex machina that suddenly teleports them to safety. What if they have to go back in? With a map they've already completed they have that knowledge and now go back in. Besides there used to a number on the treasure charts under scrolls for a map being found. It is a great opportunity to present a piece of the map that the players are missing and let them figure out where it goes.

[Nova]

Like I said, just differences. Not necessarily good or bad.

Transfering the fluff is one thing, but it still involves a transfer. One game goes "and here's the fluff" the other requires you to go take the fluff from elsewhere or make your own... But its not like you couldn't do just that with D&D also. Sure you can migrate it, but it wouldn't be honest to claim Fantasycraft is what offers you Eberron (or kenders, if someone really must be into THOSE) anymore than saying Goodyear is where blimps come from.

Same with rolling. If you're throwing in the randomization system from other games, that, again is going the homebrew-rules-changes route. Again, its not that that's a bad thing, but we can't just pretend that the random stat system, race/class ability score requirements, differing class xp progressions and the quirks&flaws tables are something that FC came with, just because its 'possible' to transfer those systems over with a bit of work and tweaking.

 If someone's trying to figure out what a game offers that others don't, "take this from the other game and tack it on" isn't a point in its favor in my mind, its telling them there's something lacking. AD&D and Hackmaster have race and class restrictions based on what you rolled. Hard to get more different than point-buy. Sure you can add those to Fantasycraft, but is that what you got when you bought it?

I could change all of the internal components of my PSP for those of a DS, add in a semi-touchpad screen and copy the necessary software. That doesn't mean sony can claim their handheld lets you play DS games.


Edit: On mapping: My PCs are currently in a... slightly larger than average dungeon. None of them had any interests in mapping, geography, etc for their characters, but the mage did have inscription as a crafting focus. So I let'em make maps. However, dimensions were kept vague as none of them had really anything to measure (nor did they try). What we ended up with were three somewhat-similar but vastly different renditions of a small portion of a region.

But why would anyone assume its instant teleportation when they're dungeoncrawling???

[Desertpuma]

Well, you can add those class prereqs in your home game because you choose to. FC does not need anything tacked on but it is easy to do if you want to. You may be forgetting the back of the book. FC is a toolbox system designed to allow players to use what they want to so they can play the way they want to. It was designed more for home brew than a Living campaign. FC is all about customizing for your home game.

As for the instant teleport, certain higher level characters might have the ability. In addition, I always wondered why those dungeon delving mods in a Living campaign just handwaved characters getting out of the dungeon at the conclusion.

[Wolverine]

But why would anyone assume its instant teleportation when they're dungeoncrawling???

In addition, I always wondered why those dungeon delving mods in a Living campaign just handwaved characters getting out of the dungeon at the conclusion.

I've always gone with the theory that the players, in the course of the adventure, have cleared out the previous occupants and can simply walk back to the entrance. This doesn't work for most 'realistic' dungeons as they could secretly link up to other areas, flow organically into areas that only the inhabitants are able to access, or simply have refilled naturally with creatures wandering (or following the players) in from the outside. On top of this is the area between the dungeon and the town. Unless the party are particularly devastating (or the dungeon is next to or inside the town) it is unlikely the path will still be completely clear.

Ultimately, it's up to the GM to determine whether or not this is the case. You could have the dungeon refill and surprise the players when they go to leave, or just hand wave it and let them effectively 'teleport' back to town.

[Desertpuma]

I played many a 1st & 2nd Ed D&D where it was required to keep a map of the dungeon in order to get out. One DM in particular would sometimes hand out pieces of maps of other parts of the dungeons so we players would have to figure out where it fit in order to explore it (especially if behind a secret door). Unless it was a well lit room, we often were in darker areas and sometimes ran into walls because we could not see well enough. More than once, we got lost trying to get out of a dungeon because our map did not account for rooms shifting or corridors being sealed behind us. It actually was way more cool to have to deal with that on the map we had drawn then when the GM just lays it all down or draws it all out for us.

[ArawnNox]

I just thought of a good one that can be a big selling point for the system: Combat Mechanics.
Overall, they're exactly the same, but with a few major differences.

1: No Attacks of Opportunity. This and all its feat options are removed. However, there are character options in the various feat trees that give the player free attacks under certain circumstances.

2: Movement. The only major difference is that adjacency stops enemy and player movement, so getting around a battlefield gets more tactical.

3: No handedness. Left-handed, right-handed, and ambidexterity don't matter in Fantasy Craft. You are just as good at wielding two weapons as one.

4: Skill vs Skill combat actions. Gone are the complex rules for grappling, feinting, disarming, and so on. Now its skill vs skill. Personally, this is the big one for me, I've seen combats grind to a halt because even the veteran players have to look up the grappling rules.

5: Tricks. There are a lot more things you can do in combat with the application of tricks. Make that attack roll do something special with a trick.

6: No iterative attacks. Gaining more attacks as your base attack bonus climbs is gone from Fantasy Craft. There are ways to generate more hits or attacks in Fantasy Craft, but they require feat investment and usually a penalty to your attack roll.

Those are the big differences between Fantasy Craft and DnD in terms of how combat works, that I can think of off the top of my head. Personally, I love the tweaks to combat. The combats move much faster and are more dynamic than the DnD games I played. At least, in my opinion.

[Charlie_X]

There is a core difference in running and prep which I've been noticing in the last few weeks. I'm normally a GM but a player's using FantasyCraft to run a Pathfinder game. It's interesting seeing what's what, but there's been a culture clash which I've not really noticed until now.

FantasyCraft, much like SpyCraft, is along the lines of Deus Ex. You get a problem and non-linear methods of completion. At least I feel it's encouraged heavily. With 3.5, 4E and Pathfinder, the "action time" happens at an encounter-by-encounter pace instead of a scenic one.

This might just be me, but I've felt the FantasyCraft system encourages not just combat as a method to complete a scenario, or at least unorthodox combat as a potential solution. With encounter-based systems it feels more like a jRPG where you go from room to room, killing things. Again, it's possible with scenes, just less of a thing.