Bow Supremacy

[Crafty_Alex]

Just to be sure, the damage for the additional hit you get with bow supremacy if you hit by 4 or more, is 1d6 (the arrow damage) or 1d6+modifiers (archer sp., stance, and so on...)?

Man, everyone's really getting turned around about this feat....this is an additional hit, subject to all the same rules as the first, thus adding any damage modifiers as normal.

[Atr]

Thank you very much Alex. Then we are using in a wrong way Knife mastery feats. One of my players will be pretty happy this evening.

[Nova]

I was under the impression that it was extra dice of damage to your single 'hit', such that hitting by 4+ made that 1dx+Y into 2dx+Y and so on. This was making guns seem already an iffy long-term choice compared to the bigger bows.

But as a triple-the-bonuses set of hits? even with the (slightly) lower AP, that seems way over the top: +2(alignment) +2(stance) +1(superior bow) +1(superior arrow?) +4(bullseye) +5(magic weapon II on the arrow stack)... Against a special character we're staring at 12+ hits of 1dx+15,  each unlikely to have less than AP4 (assuming you don't have some elemental-conversion mods on your magic gear, then it may just bypass), with easily 18-20 or better (easily better)... Toss in ranged sneak from deadeye for every group of 3 attacks and +2 from goblin make...

I'm having a very hard time figuring out what can top a potential 15x 1d10+15 AP4 (plus 5x sneak if you can force the right conditions) per hasted round, here...

[Sletchman]

I'm having a very hard time figuring out what can top a potential 15x 1d10+15 AP4 (plus 5x sneak if you can force the right conditions) per hasted round, here...

Knives definately can [and can easily sneak compared to bows], and flails might be able to, but I'm not at my books.

Of course it's not about raw damage numbers.  Our mobility focused sword and board guy was a menace in our game, and my ogre luchadore was an anthropomorphised warcrime - yes the bow user could, on paper, out damage both of us - but we were the threat [and for what it's worth, the same game had an archer].

Also of note, is that potential damage should be 1d10+20 - you didn't factor in Path of War...

[Deral]

I was under the impression that it was extra dice of damage to your single 'hit', such that hitting by 4+ made that 1dx+Y into 2dx+Y and so on. This was making guns seem already an iffy long-term choice compared to the bigger bows.

But as a triple-the-bonuses set of hits? even with the (slightly) lower AP, that seems way over the top: +2(alignment) +2(stance) +1(superior bow) +1(superior arrow?) +4(bullseye) +5(magic weapon II on the arrow stack)... Against a special character we're staring at 12+ hits of 1dx+15,  each unlikely to have less than AP4 (assuming you don't have some elemental-conversion mods on your magic gear, then it may just bypass), with easily 18-20 or better (easily better)... Toss in ranged sneak from deadeye for every group of 3 attacks and +2 from goblin make...

I'm having a very hard time figuring out what can top a potential 15x 1d10+15 AP4 (plus 5x sneak if you can force the right conditions) per hasted round, here...

Well, to pull that off (even ignoring the sneak attack) you've spent 6 feats, took a half action stance, a -9 to hit and have to be hitting by 10 (so on the level of -19 to hit), I'd say that's about the level of pain-bringing that character has earned through such devotion!

If you want something comparable assuming similar beneficial math,  with 6 feats (Flail Basics-Supremacy, Darting/Flashing Weapon, All-Out Attack), a -9 to hit, you can possibly be running around with +9 to hit (net -2, 17 better than the above, so hopefully hitting more often), +17 to damage (didn't see you threw in magic, so make that +22, +27 with Path of War, +29 with Alignment, +30 with Superior, +Whatever with Strength added in), with damage that increases if anything increases your number of attacks like Cleave, Combat Instincts, Contempt, or Decisive attack.

Edit:

I'm having a very hard time figuring out what can top a potential 15x 1d10+15 AP4 (plus 5x sneak if you can force the right conditions) per hasted round, here...

Knives definately can [and can easily sneak compared to bows], and flails might be able to, but I'm not at my books.

Of course it's not about raw damage numbers.  Our mobility focused sword and board guy was a menace in our game, and my ogre luchadore was an anthropomorphised warcrime - yes the bow user could, on paper, out damage both of us - but we were the threat [and for what it's worth, the same game had an archer].

Also of note, is that potential damage should be 1d10+20 - you didn't factor in Path of War...

Well, there's the flail again. And as for Path of War, at this point trying to squeeze all that into a priest we're getting away from actually working concepts, but I see where you're coming from.

[Blankbeard]

Where is the 1d10 coming from?  Even if you apply scale to arrows you only get 1d8.  Upscaled foot bow would do 1d10 but you'd need to be prone to fire it, meaning you can't be in the stance.

In addition to all of that, this also assumes 9 spell points worth of spells and that you're shooting at an outsider with an opposed alignment (or at least that the only way I recall to get bonus damage out of aligned).  And maybe that you're a priest.  It's impressive, but it requires a lot of investment, both in character options and party resources.  I don't know how the 5x sneak attack comes in unless you're attacking 5 different characters.  I suppose I should point out that another character with Coordinated Attack could let you shoot off another 3 arrows each round.  Stinks to miss though.

I don't think there's a lot you can do with black powder weapons. Here's my attempt:

Level 20
Race:  Rootwalker or Unborn
Feats: Quick Draw, Surge of Speed, Bow Basics, Many-Armed, Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Style
Equipment:  Bandolier, X large scale superior giant make boarding pistols, shot and powder
Spells: Haste, Magic Weapon, 2x Unseen Servant

Big Assumption:  Two weapon fighting specifies "when you're armed with two 1-handed weapons" and this guy actually has 7 pistols readied.  Even so, I'm assuming that TWF actually works in this case.  If it doesn't there's still the sustained approach.

Each shot does 3d8+6 or +8 in stance plus Dex bonus.  Thanks to the bandolier, the pistols have load 5. The character can make 3 free handle item actions per round so long as he holds no more than 6 pistols.  If he uses SoS and haste to reload, he reloads one pistol per round *while firing two*.  In addition, each unseen servant can reload a pistol in 4 rounds, with one half action to retrieve the dropped pistol included.

It looks like he can fire 5 shots the first round, 3 the second, one after that. He can load and fire one pistol per round as long as haste holds out.  With SoS and haste, that's 24 rounds of one shot every round.  Every 5 rounds the unseen servants give him 2 loaded pistols. That gives him an additional 10 shots, 12 if the servants carry a loaded pistol for him between combats.  Essentially, he can fire 42 shots in 24 rounds per scene.  That nearly consumes the 50 ammo from Magic Weapon II.

Sustained, he fires 2 pistols per round for 8 rounds using 2 rounds of surge of speed, ending with one pistol with 4 of 5 reload actions.  The unseen servants perform as above, letting him get a total of 10 rounds of 2 shots out before he's empty.  If he does nothing else, he can reload a pistol every round without using surge of speed.  

ETA:  The starred text.

[Sletchman]

Well, there's the flail again. And as for Path of War, at this point trying to squeeze all that into a priest we're getting away from actually working concepts, but I see where you're coming from.

Nice math on the Flail - I was sure they could put out some impressive pure damage numbers.  I actually only mentioned Path of War because I played an Elven Priest of machinegunnery - who had the three bow feats and Angry Hornet.  Of course to ensure I could actually hit somewhat reliably, I took the attack bonus magical boost instead of the damage bonus.

Also terrific work on the blackpowder user Blankbeard.

[Nova]

Far as I can figure, short of flat +x damage magic equipment, the best you can do for black powder damage, race/ROF not withstanding:

Priest 10 Deadeye 10
Sniper: Most Deadly, Thousand-Yard Stare, Chink in their armor
Masks: Get Benediction

Wolfpack B/M/S: Bullseye, Lady luck's smile, Fortunate, Fortune Favors the Bold, Ambush Basics, Ferocity Basics, Misdirection B/M/S
Use of feats: 14 of [7+3+2+2+Spec+PossiblyRace]. Leaves enough for two-weapon fighting

Paths: War or Metal V, + Death 1 if you can get blessed somewhere in there.

Upscaled Superior Goblin AP Military pistols
3d8+1, 18-20, +2 sneak damage

Against ideal target conditions (flanked living target on misdirection activation, under +lethal battle orders, +magic:

Threat: 17-2(surprise shot)-1(misdirection)-1(wolfpack)-2(magic-item) = 11-20
Damage: 3d8+1 +4(bullseye) +5(magic weapon II) +2(Death) +5(war V) = 3d8+27
Sneak: 2(range)+1(ambush)+2(wolfpack)+2(misdirection) = 7d6+2+7(ferocity)
AD: double dice, explode on max-1, +2 to die result
AP: 6 on aimed actions.

Before action dice, this gives us a single-hit output of 30-51 Lethal + 16-51 Sneak, AP6, with a 75% chance of critical threat. Action dice are potentially infinite, but if you ignore their exploding capacity and 'cap' at diesize, that's +2d10+2 additional damage, for a grand total of 50-122, 75% chance of it being to wounds.

Almost a guaranteed kill on anything that isn't tough or kaiju-sized. Whether it can catch up to a bow though despite using more than twice the feats depends on whether you can keep the target eating sneak for more than one shot, or how many shots you can manage in a round:
3 with just quickdraw, 4 if you've got haste, 5 if you have haste AND time your misdirection mastery activation just right, though that would change your opening shot up there. Which would pit it against 15x 1d8+20 (pre-sneak) strikes of an equally hasted/geared/magic bow for potentially similar output.

If very heavy armor or destroying weaponry/emplacements is your thing, replace War V with Destruction V.  Someone with more path options can also replace Death with Metal. more levels of priest could significantly increase the per-hit damage, but at a cost of feats, threat against flatfooted, and sneak.

These are VERY specific builds though, more 3.5 charop what with the "specific race, specific class, specific feats, specific special class abilities" than anything normally done in fantasycraft.

[Blankbeard]

Damage: 3d8+1 +4(bullseye) +5(magic weapon II) +2(Death) +5(war V) = 3d8+27

Isn't that 3d8+17?

These are VERY specific builds though, more 3.5 charop what with the "specific race, specific class, specific feats, specific special class abilities" than anything normally done in fantasycraft.

Yeah, it's still good to knock on the system every once in a while.  These all take more than one character, and investments by those characters, to pull off and they mostly require odd situations for maximum damage.  Even so, they're not hulking hurlers or any of the other ridiculous builds we saw with 3E. 

[wowz316]

Do you have to be the flanker though?   What if the target is flanked by 2 PCs, and you are off at range?

This led me to a bit of confusion, the flanking rules are actually a little back and forth, they imply a character gains the flanked condition when two opponents stand on either side, but then says that "While flanking a character, an opponent gains +2 to attack checks against him." A totally literal reading of that would say they gain the condition but only the two creating the condition gain a bonus to hit (still making them officially flanked for sneak attack). I don't think that's the actual intention, but I guess we'll see.

Also, I must have never noticed before, but does even a Stunned or Paralyzed character lose flat-footed after they've been hit once, even if the original condition persists? (Again, the rules imply yes, I just don't know for sure if that's the intention, it seems so obvious yet it has never crossed my mind, maybe that's why.)

Actually, I'm also pretty interested to find out what's the take on this.. if a character has a prevailing condition that makes him flatfooted all the time, then each hit should not remove the flatfooted condition.

Also.. Multishot implies all arrows hit at once, not hit one after another. Won't this mean that all arrows generate a sneak attack? Its 3 arrows at the same time here.. not one after another. Its logical that shooting 3 arrows at once at the same target, at the same time, will have the same modifiers, if they all hit, if 10 or more is rolled. 

[Deral]

Do you have to be the flanker though?   What if the target is flanked by 2 PCs, and you are off at range?

This led me to a bit of confusion, the flanking rules are actually a little back and forth, they imply a character gains the flanked condition when two opponents stand on either side, but then says that "While flanking a character, an opponent gains +2 to attack checks against him." A totally literal reading of that would say they gain the condition but only the two creating the condition gain a bonus to hit (still making them officially flanked for sneak attack). I don't think that's the actual intention, but I guess we'll see.

Also, I must have never noticed before, but does even a Stunned or Paralyzed character lose flat-footed after they've been hit once, even if the original condition persists? (Again, the rules imply yes, I just don't know for sure if that's the intention, it seems so obvious yet it has never crossed my mind, maybe that's why.)

Actually, I'm also pretty interested to find out what's the take on this.. if a character has a prevailing condition that makes him flatfooted all the time, then each hit should not remove the flatfooted condition.

Also.. Multishot implies all arrows hit at once, not hit one after another. Won't this mean that all arrows generate a sneak attack? Its 3 arrows at the same time here.. not one after another. Its logical that shooting 3 arrows at once at the same target, at the same time, will have the same modifiers, if they all hit, if 10 or more is rolled. 

While I'd still like to hear about the first part (Conditions like Paralyzed maintaining Flatfooted or not), the Multishot thing is definitively answered and is pretty much a balance issue, it is outright declared on page 211, last point under Sneak Attack Damage:

If a single attack generates multiple hits, sneak attack damage is only applied to the first hit.

So while under strict reading without that line, Multishot should, by all means, produce sneak attack damage multiple times, that line cancels it out.

[wowz316]

got it.. its how the rules were built. but i'm still interested in the question Conditions like Paralyzed maintaining Flatfooted or not.. I mean if he's paralyzed, getting hit does not remove his condition. he still can't move and change his stance.

[ArawnNox]

got it.. its how the rules were built. but i'm still interested in the question Conditions like Paralyzed maintaining Flatfooted or not.. I mean if he's paralyzed, getting hit does not remove his condition. he still can't move and change his stance.

Well, I'd look at it like an If -> Then Statement.

If Paralyzed, Then Flat Footed
If Attacked, Then loose Flat Footed

By that logic, he may 'lose' flatfooted when attacked, but if he's still paralyzed, he'll just regain flat footed right away.

[Doublebond]

got it.. its how the rules were built. but I'm still interested in the question Conditions like Paralyzed maintaining Flatfooted or not.. I mean if he's paralyzed, getting hit does not remove his condition. he still can't move and change his stance.

The official call on the Paralyzed condition in regards to whether it generates the Flatfooted condition or not is that it is up to the GM's discretion, as there could theoretically be situations where being paralyzed would not leave you as helpless as the Flatfooted condition indicates.

Give that, I would then assume that it is also the GM's call as to whether the character looses flatfooted in such circumstances as you describe. It makes sense to me, given that the GM is the only reason the Paralyzed condition is causing the player to be Flatfooted in the first place.