Bow Supremacy

[Sletchman]

EDIT: Also, a point in favour of the bow supremacy trick: if you crit, it can easily be a one-shot kill against a special character (not many of whom would have more than 3(d6+X) wounds).  It really isn't underpowered, especially if you've made some modest investments into increasing your crit range, or got yourself some keen arrows...

As I understand it, you'd need to spend one AD per arrow to activate that crit - just based on the standard ruling for that kind of stuff [AOE's and multi-hit crits in general].  That or only the first arrow would deal critical damage [same as only the first arrow of the three would have sneak attack].

[Fortinbras]

Alternatively, just decide that narrative is king and house rule that PC's never run out of ammo.

There are people out there who track ammunition? 

[Deral]

EDIT: Also, a point in favour of the bow supremacy trick: if you crit, it can easily be a one-shot kill against a special character (not many of whom would have more than 3(d6+X) wounds).  It really isn't underpowered, especially if you've made some modest investments into increasing your crit range, or got yourself some keen arrows...

As I understand it, you'd need to spend one AD per arrow to activate that crit - just based on the standard ruling for that kind of stuff [AOE's and multi-hit crits in general].  That or only the first arrow would deal critical damage [same as only the first arrow of the three would have sneak attack].

Actually, this is an interesting thought- I wonder in what cases attacks from the Multi-Shot trick count as one attack or three. I'd definitely say they'd have to be critical'd individually, but how would you apply sneak attack? For many purposes and fluff-wise, they apply simultaneously, but against a flat-footed character would the first hit drop the condition or would it go off on each, seeing as how they all hit at the same time (at least from the perspective of an unaware target, or any target for that matter).

I'd think the line "roll separately each time you inflict damage," clearly implies DR, Resists, and other such damage modifiers apply individually, and the knife burst fire trick, Blade Flurry, is tougher to see happening simultaneously even though it uses the same rules but I still have a kinda hard time trying to figure out why a target would stop being flat-footed against two of three attacks hitting him at the same time (or within a fraction of a second).

Edit: Another question about this trick: Can it be applied to any use to a Free Attack? Technically it doesn't actually grant additional attacks, just extra damage, by the wording alone I would say it carefully skirts the description of Free Attacks on page 205, and fluff-wise I can easily see that making sense. However, the Knife Blade Flurry trick rears it's head again and starts to seem like more than one attack...

[paddyfool]

Alternatively, just decide that narrative is king and house rule that PC's never run out of ammo.

There are people out there who track ammunition? 

Yeah... I'm one of them (my level 4 character's toting around standard arrows, climbing arrows, custom-made keen arrows, and powder and shot). 

Some kind of unlimited ammo campaign quality would be nice to keep the paperwork down: Buy 30 of [ammo type X] and you count as always carrying 30 for weight purposes and having unlimited ammunition of that type for combat purposes, perhaps?

That way, you'd only be into tracking expensive superfancy ammo, and have an unlimited amount of whatever your default option might be...

[Grimace]

Just allow characters to recover some arrows.  Maybe just the ones that hit.

[Deral]

Alternatively, just decide that narrative is king and house rule that PC's never run out of ammo.

There are people out there who track ammunition? 

Yeah... I'm one of them (my level 4 character's toting around standard arrows, climbing arrows, custom-made keen arrows, and powder and shot). 

Some kind of unlimited ammo campaign quality would be nice to keep the paperwork down: Buy 30 of [ammo type X] and you count as always carrying 30 for weight purposes and having unlimited ammunition of that type for combat purposes, perhaps?

That way, you'd only be into tracking expensive superfancy ammo, and have an unlimited amount of whatever your default option might be...

More stingy GMs could have arrows have a set upkeep cost that triggers at the start or end of each adventure, after which point they're considered unlimited for one adventure.

[Crafty_Alex]

Trying to determine how much damage does this trick does which uses 3 arrows to attack, Does this:

a. Use up 3 arrows, when hits, roll damage for 3 arrows, if it hits by 4 or more, deals another arrow of damage, by 10 or more another arrow of damage?

b. Use up 3 arrows, does 1 arrow of damage, but if hit by 4 or more, deals another arrow of damage, by 10 or more another arrow of damage?

c. Use up 3 arrows, does damage for 3 arrows, if it hits by 4 or more, deals 3 more arrows worth of damage, if by 10 or more, deals 6 more arrows worth of damage?

Option B.

To be honest, I'm a little confused whether this is underpowered or overpowered, a friend pointed out that it expends 3 arrows but deal only 1 arrow worth and only if hit by 4 or more does it do the other arrows worth of damage. To me this doesn't seem to make that much sense, what makes more sense  is that if i use 3 arrows, i should deal 3 arrows worth of damage. 

If you want to do each arrows damage for certain on each shot, then make 3 seperate attacks Multi-Shot involves stringing 3 arrows for a single attack, and as Krensky noted, works like burst fire for Spycraft. Yes, it is difficult to fire 3 arrows and hit with all three, but remember you're doing so as a half action - if you had Blackened Sky and a good enough attack bonus, you could theoretically score up to 12 arrow hits in a single round 

I just had a thought. Since the wording of the feat implies additional hits from the arrows (one roll, up to three seperat rolls for damage) then would each instance of damage being rolled trigger a damage save? So, if all three arrows it, then the standard monster has to make three damage saves, each one harder than the last (Depending on the roll)?

That is correct. Each arrow is a seperate hit, and each hit's damage is totalled before the next save. Since most standard NPCs almost perfectly fit the bill of the "three shot man" found in action movies, the simultaneous 3 hits are more than likely to kill your target quickly.

Actually, this is an interesting thought- I wonder in what cases attacks from the Multi-Shot trick count as one attack or three. I'd definitely say they'd have to be critical'd individually, but how would you apply sneak attack? For many purposes and fluff-wise, they apply simultaneously, but against a flat-footed character would the first hit drop the condition or would it go off on each, seeing as how they all hit at the same time (at least from the perspective of an unaware target, or any target for that matter).

This is discussed explicitly in FC second printing:

On crits (page 207): ":To gain the benefits of a critical hit, the character simply spends 1 or more
action dice (when an attack hits multiple characters, the attacker chooses which to critically hit, spending 1 or more dice for each). This cost is paid separately for each hit, even when multiple hits
are scored with a single attack or action."

On sneak attack damage (page 211, third bullet): "If a single attack generates multiple hits, sneak attack damage is only applied to the first hit." 

Edit: Another question about this trick: Can it be applied to any use to a Free Attack? Technically it doesn't actually grant additional attacks, just extra damage, by the wording alone I would say it carefully skirts the description of Free Attacks on page 205, and fluff-wise I can easily see that making sense. However, the Knife Blade Flurry trick rears it's head again and starts to seem like more than one attack...

Blade Flurry and Multishot both do not generate extra attacks, they generate extra hits. In both cases only a single attack check is made. 

[Deral]

This is discussed explicitly in FC second printing:

On crits (page 207): ":To gain the benefits of a critical hit, the character simply spends 1 or more
action dice (when an attack hits multiple characters, the attacker chooses which to critically hit, spending 1 or more dice for each). This cost is paid separately for each hit, even when multiple hits
are scored with a single attack or action."

On sneak attack damage (page 211, third bullet): "If a single attack generates multiple hits, sneak attack damage is only applied to the first hit."  

Ugh this is what I get for waking up early and immediately trying to respond to a post- I knew this. Thanks though! Just to be 100% clear, this applies even if sneak attack conditions are not removed, right? Make two half action attacks, each with that trick against a flanked character and sneak attack will apply to 2 of 6 of those hits? There's no way the wording would imply otherwise, just making sure that was still the intent.

Blade Flurry and Multishot both do not generate extra attacks, they generate extra hits. In both cases only a single attack check is made.  

This is pretty much what I though as well, thanks again!

[Fortinbras]

More stingy GMs could have arrows have a set upkeep cost that triggers at the start or end of each adventure, after which point they're considered unlimited for one adventure.

PCs already have to pay hefty upkeep costs unless they have exceptionally high Prudence! It would just seem mean not to let that cover ammunition. You can always activate an error to say they've run out of ammo if you feel it'd improve the story.

[Deral]

More stingy GMs could have arrows have a set upkeep cost that triggers at the start or end of each adventure, after which point they're considered unlimited for one adventure.

PCs already have to pay hefty upkeep costs unless they have exceptionally high Prudence! It would just seem mean not to let that cover ammunition. You can always activate an error to say they've run out of ammo if you feel it'd improve the story.

Prudence is a pretty significant cost, though I try to look at it less as a penalty and more of a benefit for characters who are better with their money, if by default everybody loses 85% of their wealth, then you only really gain 15% of the wealth you seem to, unless you're better at keeping it. Besides, I wasn't talking about charging them an arm and a leg, just something to keep a GM satisfied who doesn't want a player spending 10s once for thousands of arrows over a campaign. Personally I don't really bother but then again my players have no qualms keeping track of ammunition.

[Krensky]

Spycraft has a unlimited ammon quality, Bottomless Clip if memory serves. My book isn't handy, but if I remember right PCs never run out of ammo until the GC spends some action dice.

[Crafty_Alex]

Just to be 100% clear, this applies even if sneak attack conditions are not removed, right? Make two half action attacks, each with that trick against a flanked character and sneak attack will apply to 2 of 6 of those hits? There's no way the wording would imply otherwise, just making sure that was still the intent.

Sneak attack damage only ever applies if the conditions are right it to apply (IE the target is flatfooted or flanked). If something causes the character to lose flatfooted (such as after taking the first hit from a Multishot bow attack), the sneak attack would not apply to the remaining attacks.

[Doublebond]

I have a question in regards to class and other character abilities that give additional sneak attack damage.

Do these additional dies of sneak attack damage always apply, or only when Sneak attack damage would otherwise be applied?

[EloiseCartwright]

Sneak attack damage only applies when Sneak Attack damage applies. Otherwise it would be something else.

[Kerebrus]

And you cannot Flank someone with a ranged attack