Bow Supremacy

[wowz316]

Just trying to understand the feat better.. Not sure where to look for answers or whether if this should just be added to my earlier post.

BOW SUPREMACY

Multi-Shot (Bow Attack Trick): Using this trick fires 3 arrows or bolts. If you hit by 4 or more, you inflict your ammunition’s
damage an additional time. If you hit by 10 or more, you inflict your ammunition’s damage two additional times. In both cases, roll separately each time you inflict damage.

Trying to determine how much damage does this trick does which uses 3 arrows to attack, Does this:

a. Use up 3 arrows, when hits, roll damage for 3 arrows, if it hits by 4 or more, deals another arrow of damage, by 10 or more another arrow of damage?

b. Use up 3 arrows, does 1 arrow of damage, but if hit by 4 or more, deals another arrow of damage, by 10 or more another arrow of damage?

c. Use up 3 arrows, does damage for 3 arrows, if it hits by 4 or more, deals 3 more arrows worth of damage, if by 10 or more, deals 6 more arrows worth of damage?

To be honest, I'm a little confused whether this is underpowered or overpowered, a friend pointed out that it expends 3 arrows but deal only 1 arrow worth and only if hit by 4 or more does it do the other arrows worth of damage. To me this doesn't seem to make that much sense, what makes more sense  is that if i use 3 arrows, i should deal 3 arrows worth of damage. 

[Doublebond]

Basically, the feat allows you to fire three arrows at once. Whether you hit with all of them (and thus deal three arrows' worth of damage) depends on how well you roll on the attack check. If you meet or exceed the target's defense at all, one of the arrows hits. If you exceed the target's defense by 4 or more, two of the arrows hit. If you exceed by 10 or more, then all three of the arrows you fired hit.

[Golden Dragon]

I also think that there is a speed-of-play issue. Rather than rolling three separate attack checks, they just grant degrees of success for a single roll.

[Krensky]

It's essentially burst fire for bows and cross bows. That's how burst fire works in Spycraft.

[wowz316]

I see. the most damage one can do with a bow is 1d6 + 2(archer specialty) +2(if opponent is standard) +2(if opponent is opposite aligned +1(superior bow) +1(superior arrow). Is my math correct? Is there a way to increase damage short of going magical? I understand Dex doesn't add to damage of the bow?

Burst fire for bows means you're basically wasting arrows if you don't hit high. 

Thanks for the responses! I really appreciate fast responses. I'm pretty new to Fantasy Craft and I'm still learning all the rules.

[Number Three]

I've seen burst fire work with great effect at higher levels in SC2.0.  Defense doesn't scale at the same rate as BAB like AC does in D&D, so high attack bonuses can deal brutal amounts of damage.  Yes, you are chewing through lots of ammo, but large clumps of damage are more effective against standard NPCs then against a special with his own supply of vitality to chew through.

[Deral]

I see. the most damage one can do with a bow is 1d6 + 2(archer specialty) +2(if opponent is standard) +2(if opponent is opposite aligned +1(superior bow) +1(superior arrow). Is my math correct? Is there a way to increase damage short of going magical? I understand Dex doesn't add to damage of the bow?

Burst fire for bows means you're basically wasting arrows if you don't hit high. 

Thanks for the responses! I really appreciate fast responses. I'm pretty new to Fantasy Craft and I'm still learning all the rules.

Well, Footbow or a bow with +1 scale may do 1d8 (and a footbow with +1 scale would be 1d10), Bullseye can add up to another +4, and Bow Basics gives you a stance that throws on another +2, so technically the most you can do with a bow is 1d10+14, unless there's something I'm missing as well.

Thing is, damage doesn't scale very high for melee, either, and what might have been extra damage on the Bow side of things is compensated for by frequently huge AP.

Also, yeah, if you don't hit high you don't get the extra hits, but it's just two arrows, that's only 2/3rds of 1 silver piece, surely your GM isn't so stingy that THAT is so costly? Or are you throwing out some complexity 65, 25 reputation arrows? Then I feel your pain but I wouldn't really use those with that trick anyhow- or I'd talk to my GM about whether or not they really ought to break when I miss.

[Gentry]

Even 1d6+14 is nothing to sneeze at. I'll take flat bonus damage over a bigger die every day. Remember that dealing even one point of damage is enough to trigger a damage save from a standard NPC. Unlearn the damage desires of "old d20", where more is automatically better. In FC, 3 small shots on goal is often superior to 1 big hit.

[Krensky]

Burst fire for bows means you're basically wasting arrows if you don't hit high. 

It's not hard to generate a soldier with a nice fat attack bonus at even first level.

Buy a 16 Dex, pick a talent with a +2 bonus to Dex. That's +4 to ranged attack. Soldier gives +1 BAB at level 1. Bow forte gives another +1, and Bow basics grants +2.

4+1+1+2=+8 for an average roll of 18.5

At TL 1, a hypothetical 'average' NPC has a Defense of 11.

You have a seventy percent chance of hitting twice, and a forty percent chance of hitting three times.

The biggest mistake and disservice to the game is treating it like a D&D clone. A lot of things work subtlety differently. As pointed out, doing 1 point of damge to a standard NPC can take it out, and will if it's a mook. I've had standard NPCs take 20 or more points of damage without failing the save (he became a special NPC after the fight ) and I've had ones fail after a single point of damage.

[ArawnNox]

I just had a thought. Since the wording of the feat implies additional hits from the arrows (one roll, up to three seperat rolls for damage) then would each instance of damage being rolled trigger a damage save? So, if all three arrows it, then the standard monster has to make three damage saves, each one harder than the last (Depending on the roll)?

[Sletchman]

I just had a thought. Since the wording of the feat implies additional hits from the arrows (one roll, up to three seperat rolls for damage) then would each instance of damage being rolled trigger a damage save? So, if all three arrows it, then the standard monster has to make three damage saves, each one harder than the last (Depending on the roll)?

That's how we do it - 3 lots of damage, 3 saves.

[Bill Whitmore]

Theoretically, it also means DR and Resistances gets applied to each individual hit, though with the AP on those, there usually isn't much DR left.

[Catodon]

Burst fire for bows means you're basically wasting arrows if you don't hit high. 

(cut long tirade on simulation vs. game play)...an essential feature of warfare in the pre-modern era.
Anyway for those who have a problem with limited arrows, a little research can uncover a number of attempts through the ages to circumvent the problem. Alternatively, just decide that narrative is king and house rule that PC's never run out of ammo.

[wowz316]

All useful since we're playing post Troy era

[paddyfool]

Also, don't forget two things about bows:

- Bows can have silly AP very easily.  A longbow, used by someone with Bow Basics and standard arrows has AP 6, which basically means you can laugh at most armour.

- Bows can fire silly amounts of arrows.  Blacken the Sky + Bow Supremacy means you can potentially hit with 12 arrows in a single action.  (OK, it takes 5 feats to get there, you'll need a really good to-hit, and you're in trouble if your DM is counting the arrows and you don't have a weightless container for them, but still).

- Sneak attack damage can also be added on situationally, e.g. by making your bow or arrows goblincraft.

- Deadshot makes bows even more scary.

- Arrows can be a nasty poison delivery system (although this gets expensive).

EDIT: Also, a point in favour of the bow supremacy trick: if you crit, it can easily be a one-shot kill against a special character (not many of whom would have more than 3(d6+X) wounds).  It really isn't underpowered, especially if you've made some modest investments into increasing your crit range, or got yourself some keen arrows...