DESTROY ALL MONSTERS!

[glimmerrat]

Yeah, sorry about that. Here we go.

[Gentry]

As an aside, Incorporeality as written requires a full action to begin or end, according to the Spirit type. For myself, I'm thinking you really can't do what Pele just did. It's not something worth making much stink over, as Glim's the GM and his ruling's been made, but for future reference it may bear discussion.

[Ragnarok]

As an aside, Incorporeality as written requires a full action to begin or end, according to the Spirit type. For myself, I'm thinking you really can't do what Pele just did. It's not something worth making much stink over, as Glim's the GM and his ruling's been made, but for future reference it may bear discussion.

Yeah, I thought I'd have a round to react also.  Oh well...

[Mister Andersen]

OOC: It'd still have happened the same way with Frenzy's granting the extra half-action; all that's happened was that the round(s) where Pele either makes a successful Sneak check to get in position, or else Thunderbird spots her and makes his usual futile move/attack combo, were skipped.

OTOH, it seems grossly counter intuitive that an attack that hits your vitality has a better chance fo killing you than one to your wounds, but since that's the way tough works, I'll just ammend my action and don't activate the crit, in which case you're gonna have to save as previously mentioned.

[Ragnarok]

OOC: It'd still have happened the same way with Frenzy's granting the extra half-action; all that's happened was that the round(s) where Pele either makes a successful Sneak check to get in position, or else Thunderbird spots her and makes his usual futile move/attack combo, were skipped.

The main difference is that Pele would have had to make a series of Sneak checks, with a possible critical failure on 1-3 and only crit success on a 20.   Now Thunderbird had rolled a three on his Perception check just prior to this.  I expected Pele to spend an action dice to activate the critical failure to have him blinded by the smoke momentarily so I definitely was not surprised when the attack occured.  I just don't agree that she should be able to move while changing state, but since Glimmerrat has ruled differently I will certainly except the ruling.

OTOH, it seems grossly counter intuitive that an attack that hits your vitality has a better chance fo killing you than one to your wounds, but since that's the way tough works, I'll just ammend my action and don't activate the crit, in which case you're gonna have to save as previously mentioned.

I agree that Toughness is very poorly worded in the book.  I would say that you should be able to use toughness as free Saves from disabilitating and killing injuries also.  It would fit the spirit of the ability and would prevent any more instant kills from critical failures vs area attacks for the first few rounds.  As for going back and not activitating the critical, I've made mistakes also.  Can I go back and change my moves?  I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm just having to fight an incredibly difficult opponent to pin down and being able to retcon our actions just bothers me.

[glimmerrat]

Can I go back and change my moves? 

Given my ruling on Pele's previous actions, I have no problem with this.

[Mister Andersen]

The main difference is that Pele would have had to make a series of Sneak checks, with a possible critical failure on 1-3 and only crit success on a 20.   Now Thunderbird had rolled a three on his Perception check just prior to this.  I expected Pele to spend an action dice to activate the critical failure to have him blinded by the smoke momentarily so I definitely was not surprised when the attack occured.  I just don't agree that she should be able to move while changing state, but since Glimmerrat has ruled differently I will certainly except the ruling.

Pele spends this round running to a point where she can attack you (full action). He attacks her, as usual unable to do anything, either attack/moving or full round attacking; rinse and repeat until he ends a round next to her, at which point she frenzies, becomes solid and attacks. No skill check required.

As for going back and not activitating the critical, I've made mistakes also.  Can I go back and change my moves?  I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm just having to fight an incredibly difficult opponent to pin down and being able to retcon our actions just bothers me.

It's not a retcon; Pele hit Thunderbird, and there were no action dice involved. It's me realising half way through that I got the rules wrong. Take a look at Pele's build: there's an assiduously paid for and it now turns out essentially useless 35 XP of it that says I competely missed how specials use tough.

But you know, fuck it, it's done and dusted. Lets roll.

[Ragnarok]

But you know, fuck it, it's done and dusted. Lets roll.

I agree, lets continue on.

[Mister Andersen]

The Reflex save of 30 is the save to avoid lightning damage.  It is failed so the full 48 points of lightning damage is taken.  I understand that one.

I don't understand the second DC 30 Fort save. 

That was me assuming it was all sonic damage. The fact that the last attack was electrical is gonna greatly simplify things

Since it's electricity damage it should trigger a DC 48 Fort save or be sickened for d6 rounds and a DC 24 Fort save to avoid rolling on the Table of Ooch.  I'm assuming she would make the Table of Ooch save first since if she becomes sickened the Ooch save will be at -2, so she makes that one, leaving a Fort Save for the sickened still to be made.  The sickened won't make much difference in her actions, I think Pele'd still hit but it will decrease the damage done by the Glaive to 50.

As an Elemental, Pele is immune to both the sickened condition and critical injuries, which means any rolls subsequent to the lightning hit are unaffected. 

As for the saves Thunderbird should make I truly don't understand.  Assuming 50 instead of 52 damage, that yields a DC 50 Reflex save or ignite (with dire repercussions).  Since he took over 25 points he will also have to make a DC 25 (half damage) Fort or roll on Table of Ooch.  Since he took 50 points he will also have to make DC 25 (half damage) Fort or die.

Hmm,  you're right about the save or die DC being only half-damage and the ignite DC being full damage. My bad. However, we both forgot factor in DR, which means you actually avoid the massive damage threshold (*grumble*  ). Post ammended

[glimmerrat]

Jeez this is getting savage... me like! 

[Ragnarok]

Darn Spirit Elementals.....Never die like they're suppossed to.


BTW in ammended post it says DC 47 Fort save or ignite.  I believe it should be reflex and will make it momentarily.

[Dhampire]

Ragnarok, as was pointed out to me recently... an error only occurs when you roll in the error range AND a check fails.  Since your check succeeded, it's not an error, and thus can't be a Critical Failure.

And, actually, I only see threats/errors for Skills and Attacks, not Saves.

[Mister Andersen]

Yeah, saves are pass/fail only.

You also need a DC 47 Will save to avoid running away to try and put the fire out

[Ragnarok]

Ragnarok, as was pointed out to me recently... an error only occurs when you roll in the error range AND a check fails.  Since your check succeeded, it's not an error, and thus can't be a Critical Failure.

And, actually, I only see threats/errors for Skills and Attacks, not Saves.

Good to know.  Thanks

[Gentry]

Quick aside on Hornetor's Dive, vardeman: where are you seeing rules for bonus movement on a flying dive? Not that I'm nitpicking--I've just never seen them and it sounds wicked awesome.