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Author Topic: [Mastercraft]Cyborg Expert Class  (Read 2271 times)
Krensky
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« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2010, 05:55:33 PM »

Quote from: Krensky
Except that things don't work like that in Shirow's works. The Major and her childhood friend are both charismatic individuals, so are the slightly less enhanced characters in Section Nine. Briarios and the other full borgs in Appleseed are even more 'humans in funny makeup'. Briarios and Dunan are still lovers and no one thinks it's odd. Similarly, Makoto's side buisness as a call girl and her role as undercover specialist and honeypot argues against Charisma penalties. This even goes beyond human intelligences, the bioroids in Appleseed and the Tachikomas and Fuchikomas in SAC are just as charismatic or not as 'normal' humans. In some settings your comments make sense, CP2020 for instance. If you're using Shirow as your inspiration though, they're way off base.

The taks are great examples of wisdom as a dump stat, not to mention that their strong personalitits are something the Major is less than fond of. to the point of having them shut down as aberrant. And as I pointed out to 333, even with the penalty Charisma has no problem starting off human average, and good ranks in Impress makes up for a lot of sins (not to mention she isn't exactly a level 1 noob).

Appleseed is fantastically different from GitS: it's arguably a post Singularity culture where literally half the population are genetically engineered AIs (that some humans seem to have some degree of retinence over, despite their passive natures). More importantly, humans aren't going around turning themselves into bioroids (who as the name suggests are essentially organic beings)

None of which supports your premise that full borgs should take a 4 point hit in charisma. There are no examples of full borgs in Shirow's work that are uncharismatic because they have full cyber bodies. Not in the 2020s in Dominion Tank Police (granted, they not an element here but Baku's eyes and longevity suggest cybernetics aren't unknown), not in the 2030s in GitS, and not in the 2140/50s in Appleseed. That's 120, 130 years of setting background with lots of characters who you'd have a hard time saying have a -4 to charisma.
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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2010, 07:49:27 PM »

Kusanagi is somewhere between levels 14 & 20 (to the point that arguably Daisuke Aramaki is her personal lieutenant): trying to map a 1st level noob against her -- which is exactly what we're dealing with here -- is an exercise in futility. Similarly, everyone you're offering up has been doing their thing for a while.

And again, you're both still overlooking that this is a feat, taken in addition to whatever origin the character picks, not to mention their class choices, subsequent feats, level-based adjustments as well as Reputation benefits and any Treasures they might have (because as it stands, that's the easiest way to handle the chrome). It's very easy to start without a negative Charisma mod, while smart origin choice still lets you start with a positive one.

Basically you guys are looking at one feat and assuming it's the be all and end all, when it's just one part of a rather larger picture.
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Agent 333
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« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2010, 08:16:19 PM »

Basically you guys are looking at one feat and assuming it's the be all and end all, when it's just one part of a rather larger picture.

To be fair, you may have a point with that. On the other hand, this one feat seems to be doing, well, everything. Or at least trying to. It gives bonuses and penalties in such huge quantities, it's boggling. It looks like rather than make an origin, you just made a feat that does everything an origin should do. Not to mention the fact that a cybernetic body is arguably gear rather than a feat, but that just complicates matters further...
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« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2010, 09:11:32 PM »

Actually, I'd put the feat in an origin designed to offset some of the penalties

The problem is that the feat has to "do everything" -- it has to make you make you metal with a brain, it has to describe in game terms the effect of that and it has to balance out, which means it's not going to be all roses, there has to be thorns. And if you want to trim those thorns, you have to invest in stuff -- like  master class designed to enhance the fact you're metal with a brain
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Agent 333
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« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2010, 03:30:57 AM »

I'm starting to think the Feat support is unnecessary. Clearer rules in the gear plus some more options should be enough to allow for characters that are mostly cybernetic without having to spend a feat on it....

I'll keep thinking on it though...
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« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2010, 04:06:42 AM »

If you keep it to just gear, what happens when they lose said gear? Mechanically, it leaves the character totally unaffected despite their brain being the only bit of them left and generally just breaks the game.
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Sletchman
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« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2010, 05:46:40 AM »

One thing I was pondering was making a chrome renown track, and have it that you may have cybernetic prizes based on how much chrome you had.  So if Full Conversion is 50 rep, you need to have 5 levels of chrome which is something of an investment.  Nothing beyond some fuzzy thoughts while going for my evening run though.

As for losing it - if you lose a cybernetic arm shouldn't the effects be the same as losing your real arm [except perhaps without bleeding or other flesh based effects]?
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Agent 333
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« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2010, 03:33:09 PM »

If you keep it to just gear, what happens when they lose said gear? Mechanically, it leaves the character totally unaffected despite their brain being the only bit of them left and generally just breaks the game.

I'm wondering in what universe someone could lose an implant without the GM imposing penalties... You don't tend sell off body parts without buying replacements and it's hard to be disarmed of, well, your arm.
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Medwyn
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« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2010, 04:14:42 PM »

One thing I was pondering was making a chrome renown track, and have it that you may have cybernetic prizes based on how much chrome you had.  So if Full Conversion is 50 rep, you need to have 5 levels of chrome which is something of an investment.  Nothing beyond some fuzzy thoughts while going for my evening run though.

I like the Chrome renown idea, it would be easy for it to mimic the Chrome Wealth Stat that was posted on here for SC 2.0.

Then you would be able to spend your Rep on being more machine and this would remove the worry about gear.

You could also throw some feats that require a level of Chrome, class abilities to allow you to get more out of your Chrome and even a Speciality that reduces the cost of getting Chrome.
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tenebrae
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« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2010, 07:25:46 PM »

Remember that Renown is now 30/20 post-errata, so much more affordable.
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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2010, 08:06:46 PM »

If you keep it to just gear, what happens when they lose said gear? Mechanically, it leaves the character totally unaffected despite their brain being the only bit of them left and generally just breaks the game.

I'm wondering in what universe someone could lose an implant without the GM imposing penalties... You don't tend sell off body parts without buying replacements and it's hard to be disarmed of, well, your arm.

Gear doesn't impose any such penalty. If you want the character to suffer a permanent effect, you have to do it via a permanent character option.

And a problem with Chrome renown is that it gimps folks starting at higher levels: 10 x level starting rep is still too low. It needs a slightly better progression, because if you're starting at 20th level you should have at least 1 maxed out track, and if you've invested in an option that gives you a cheap track, maxing it out at 14 also seems reasonable for a starting character.

1. 15
2. 30 <-- 1st rank @20/30
3. 45 <-- 2nd rank @20
4. 60 <-- 2nd rank @30, 3rd rank @20
5. 75
6. 90 <-- 3rd rank @30, 4th rank @20
7. 105 <-- 5th rank @20
8. 120 <-- 4th rank @30, 6th rank @20
9. 135
10. 150 <-- 5th rank @30, 7th rank @20
11. 165 <-- 8th rank @20
12. 180 <-- 6th rank @30, 9th rank @20
13. 195
14. 210 <-- 7th rank @30, 10th rank @20
15. 225
16. 240 <-- 8th rank @30
17. 255
18. 270 <-- 9th rank @30
19. 285
20. 300 <-- 10th rank @30



« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 08:09:51 PM by Mister Andersen » Logged

Sletchman
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« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2010, 03:42:28 AM »

And a problem with Chrome renown is that it gimps folks starting at higher levels: 10 x level starting rep is still too low. It needs a slightly better progression, because if you're starting at 20th level you should have at least 1 maxed out track, and if you've invested in an option that gives you a cheap track, maxing it out at 14 also seems reasonable for a starting character.

I don't think that's so much a problem with Chrome renown as it is one with starting Rep.  High level starting characters also have minimal renown / prizes in standard fantasy.  Level x 15 looks pretty solid as an alternative though, perhaps for a higher powered game Level x 20 might work too.
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Agent 333
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« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2010, 06:33:12 AM »

Ok, the class I think is close-ish to done (see modified first post). How do you guys think it looks on balance? Of course, a lot of that depends on how much I end up making available as implants...
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Sletchman
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« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2010, 07:02:27 AM »

Ok, the class I think is close-ish to done (see modified first post). How do you guys think it looks on balance? Of course, a lot of that depends on how much I end up making available as implants...

Looks pretty good, I'm not sure about the capstone ability - which isn't to say it's bad or anything, just that I'm processing it.
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Morgenstern
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« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2010, 02:13:24 PM »

Heh. I just had the strangest vision of having your character becoming a bottled brain fitting into the Species Feats Tree rather than gear.

That makes it a major decision about your body that almost no class has superior access to (except maybe paladin, and that actually tickles me in a good way).

While the Uncnanny Valley effect is real and a great inspiration for possible downsides, it's also based on the psychology of a culture that doesnt' have these technologies yet. It's hard to definitively say it's appropriate within a particular setting. I would look at breaking the penalties down into their parts (prudence, appearance, skill check modifiers) rather than zapping charisma directly. While most of them are under the umbrella of Charisma, if they are split up it makes it easier to optimize the tools for specific settings with campaign qualities. That way you can have a simple campaign quality that says "you do not suffer appearance penalties for having cyberware" and it would still be perfectly clear that the prudence cost is still there.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 02:23:31 PM by Morgenstern » Logged

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