Yet more rules questions

[Rossi]

Well, guys, thanks for all the anwsers!
I have some more questions, so, if you don't mind, I will post then here as to not create another topic just for then:

- What is the reason for the extremelly long loading times with crossbows? As they are just now there almost no reason to choose one instead of a bow... Were they too overpowered before (in "that" game?)?

[Sletchman]

Well, guys, thanks for all the anwsers!
I have some more questions, so, if you don't mind, I will post then here as to not create another topic just for then:

- What is the reason for the extremelly long loading times with crossbows? As they are just now there almost no reason to choose one instead of a bow... Were they too overpowered before (in "that" game?)?

Most of the crossbows listed use a crank system, which actually does take a long time to load.  Heavy Crossbows also have super range and AP to a bow.  Mechanically though there is little reason to use a non-repeating crossbow over a bow.

[aegis]

- What is the reason for the extremelly long loading times with crossbows? As they are just now there almost no reason to choose one instead of a bow... Were they too overpowered before (in "that" game?)?

As Turnip said, it's a historical reason, not a mechanical one. Crossbows are known for their ability to pierce through armors et long range, but were plagued with an awfully long reload time. That's part of why the French were defeated by the English at the battle of Azincourt (if I remember well), where their longbows proved much more effective.

[MilitiaJim]

That's part of why the French were defeated by the English at the battle of Azincourt (if I remember well), where their longbows proved much more effective.

Agincourt, and the English longbows were rather ineffective against the French knights:  Iron arrowheads don't do a whole lot against steel plate.  But they tore up the horses something awful, and then the steel boots of the knights got stuck in the mud when the leather of the English bowmen breathed and let them keep their mobility.

So after they trudged through the mud, assuming they didn't fall and get stuck, the exhausted French knights had their bells rung by the truncheons of the English bowmen.

It was a horrific monkey cluster goat -, the was the Frenchmen's battle to lose and they pulled it off.

[Black_Irish]

Well, guys, thanks for all the anwsers!
I have some more questions, so, if you don't mind, I will post then here as to not create another topic just for then:

- What is the reason for the extremelly long loading times with crossbows? As they are just now there almost no reason to choose one instead of a bow... Were they too overpowered before (in "that" game?)?

Most of the crossbows listed use a crank system, which actually does take a long time to load.  Heavy Crossbows also have super range and AP to a bow.  Mechanically though there is little reason to use a non-repeating crossbow over a bow.

A quick and fairly easy fix is to require the bow forte for at least the longbow, if not all regular bows (to represent the many years of physical and skill training required) and then to add a "sight" quality to crossbows for a +2 to attack checks. The historical advantage of the crossbow was that it required very little skill (units were trained in a day) and did not require the user to have spent years training his body (bows should really have strength requirements). Otherwise they had many flaws...

[Doublebond]

Well, guys, thanks for all the anwsers!
I have some more questions, so, if you don't mind, I will post then here as to not create another topic just for then:

- What is the reason for the extremelly long loading times with crossbows? As they are just now there almost no reason to choose one instead of a bow... Were they too overpowered before (in "that" game?)?

Most of the crossbows listed use a crank system, which actually does take a long time to load.  Heavy Crossbows also have super range and AP to a bow.  Mechanically though there is little reason to use a non-repeating crossbow over a bow.

A quick and fairly easy fix is to require the bow forte for at least the longbow, if not all regular bows (to represent the many years of physical and skill training required) and then to add a "sight" quality to crossbows for a +2 to attack checks. The historical advantage of the crossbow was that it required very little skill (units were trained in a day) and did not require the user to have spent years training his body (bows should really have strength requirements). Otherwise they had many flaws...

The impression I got from elsewhere on the forums was that the bow requires a sizable amount of investment in the form of feats for it to really "take off" for a character, though I haven't looked into it myself.

[Bill Whitmore]

The impression I got from elsewhere on the forums was that the bow requires a sizable amount of investment in the form of feats for it to really "take off" for a character, though I haven't looked into it myself.

It's been said, but not really true.  With just the Bow proficiency (no feats) and using standard ammunition, this is pretty much how they stack up:

Long Bow: 19-20, AP 4, requires no loading, can be fired every half action
Light Crossbow: 19-20, AP 4, requires 5 actions of loading between each shot
Heavy Crossbow: 18-20, AP 7, requires 7 actions of loading between each shot

The only real advantage the Light and Heavy crossbows have is range being 10 and 20 feet longer per increment than the Longbow respectively which equates to 60 to 120 feet more maximum range.  At anything within maximum range however, I'd rather fire 6-8 more shots from the Bow with a small penalty from range than 1 shot without it.

I might consider replacing Javelins with a Heavy Crossbow to take that one shot before I draw my weapons and charge into melee.

The other minor advantage crossbows have is they are slightly more durable, though they do cost more than the Longbow.

But to get back on topic:

Well, guys, thanks for all the anwsers!
I have some more questions, so, if you don't mind, I will post then here as to not create another topic just for then:

- What is the reason for the extremelly long loading times with crossbows? As they are just now there almost no reason to choose one instead of a bow... Were they too overpowered before (in "that" game?)?

The primary reason for the loading times is it reflects reality.  There were some videos people posted a while back showing the process and time but I don't recall where they are any more.

[pawsplay]

The primary reason for the loading times is it reflects reality.  There were some videos people posted a while back showing the process and time but I don't recall where they are any more.

Whatcha want to do for your big action scene is to load a whole pile of crossbows and get your frightened and trembling thirteen-year-old son to load for you.

[Mister Andersen]

The best way to balance crossbows without introducing a strength mechanic is to allow them to be used without requiring a proficiency

[Bill Whitmore]

The best way to balance crossbows without introducing a strength mechanic is to allow them to be used without requiring a proficiency

And/or make Longbow an exotic weapon that requires the forte to use properly as was suggested earlier.  Neither option is going to heavily affect archer builds as they are going to have the Bow forte anyways, but it will make the "Bows require more training" argument feel more valid.  It may even get some characters, who want a decent ranged weapon but don't want to spend 2 proficiencies towards it, to at least give a look towards the crossbows, which seems appropriate too.

[aegis]

Whatcha want to do for your big action scene is to load a whole pile of crossbows and get your frightened and trembling thirteen-year-old son to load for you.

Exactly! Or do it Mad Martigan's way, when he defends Tyr Asleen against the troops of Bav Morda. He has loaded half a dozen heavy crossbows by the time they arrive - not to mention a handful of traps - and when they enter, he uses them one by one when he passes by. One of my favorite fantasy movie scenes... 

NB: Maybe this thread should be combined with the Q&A thread?

[Crafty_Pat]

Whatcha want to do for your big action scene is to load a whole pile of crossbows and get your frightened and trembling thirteen-year-old son to load for you.

Exactly! Or do it Mad Martigan's way, when he defends Tyr Asleen against the troops of Bav Morda. He has loaded half a dozen heavy crossbows by the time they arrive - not to mention a handful of traps - and when they enter, he uses them one by one when he passes by. One of my favorite fantasy movie scenes... 

NB: Maybe this thread should be combined with the Q&A thread?

Certainly not with this level of tangency!

[Nova]

The extremely high AP often feels situational for the low damage though. There COULD be 'resistance' to ranged, which would make the bolt as useless as an arrow. A longbow can easily stack AP4+, but the extra hits and damage rolls, especially using things like the magic-weapon spell, can bring the bow's output far higher even against full articulated plate with heavy fittings versus an arbalest. Both may also use exotic damage to bypass DR, leaving the AP stat behind.

Bows are extremely exhausting to keep drawn; its difficult to get more than 5-10 shots out a minute, and accuracy quickly suffers from the higher end of that scale. Always felt they deserved no more or less 'load 1' than a Sling, but, well, what can you do. Its a longstanding game tradition that bows just win.