Fantasy Craft Second Printing Q&A Thread

[Sletchman]

This is a stiletto
<snip>

Cool.  So it is basically the same as I thought (just clearly no flick action due to the era represented in the books).  I really don't understand why it has AP8.  That's twice the AP of a Pick with zero swing force multiplication.  Am I totally missing something about this weapon?  If it was like a big railway spike on a 2ft swingarm I'd totally get it, but it's just a thin dagger, so what gives?

[Krensky]

Because it's designed to ignore armor. And it does. To the point it was banned. Repeatedly. Even up to the 19th century (ignoring the spring loaded folding lock blades).

The entire design of a stiletto was to kill a man in articulated plate. It slipped through mail. It slid through chinks and gaps. It passed through eye slits. It was the standard secondary weapon for knights so they could deliver a coup de grace on an injured opponent. It ignored the heavy brocade and leather clothing of the time along with any light mail worn under it.

The pictures don't quite convey it, but it's basically a needle sharp hardened steel spike with a handle. It pretty much ignored armor. No, you didn't punch through a breast plate, but it killed tin cans dead.

[Sletchman]

Isn't that be the whole point of the Called Shot action though?

AP8 means it drills through stone doors (and Golems) with equal ease - in fact, with it's AP, it's almost certainly the best weapon (definitely the most reliable) for smashing down a door in the game.

I'm not trying to nitpick here - literally no one in the games I've GMed has used them before, and I wanted to make sure I understood the reason for the official rule before I considered changing it.

[tfwfh]

Yeah, damage to objects continues to be wonky relative to damaging characters.  With regard to a stiletto drilling through stone doors like they were paper, that would be a good time to apply the same logic rule from subdual damage.

If you've seen The Avengers, Loki uses one at one point.  The badguy from Gladiator also uses one at the end of the movie.  I won't say any more, for spoiler considerations, but those are some options if you want a better idea of how they're used.  Against plate mail, it slides along the plate until it gets to the edge of the plate, and then it goes 4-6 inches into whoever is wearing it.  Against virtually all other armor, it just through in much the same way nails go through plywood.

[Antilles]

A quick-and-dirty fix would be to remove the AP quality and insert a new one: 'Penetrating: This weapon ignores the penalties normally incurred when using the Cheap Shot trick.'

It may seem a bit powerful, potentially ignoring up to a -9 penalty, but since this forces you to use your precious trick slot to enable the weapon to perform as intended, I don't feel bad giving it a bit of a boost.

[Takeru]

Certain types of weapons simply can't harm certain types of objects. The listed AP is Armor Penetration, as in how many points of armor on a creature this thing gets through. A stiletto is as close to a concentrated railroad spike as you can get on a weapon, and the thrusting motion involved with stabbing a knife produces some serious force that gets through or around just about any kind of mideival armor you can possibly imagine. But just as a mace with AP wouldn't be able to cut a rope, a stiletto doesn't get through a stone door 'like paper'. Besides, even if it did? It just does 1d4 damage, and objects make a save per attack and you can't sneak attack them. I don't think you can even hack through a stone door with a stiletto unless you have such strength you can hack through a stone door with just about anything.

[Morgenstern]

Cool.  So it is basically the same as I thought (just clearly no flick action due to the era represented in the books).  I really don't understand why it has AP8.  That's twice the AP of a Pick with zero swing force multiplication.  Am I totally missing something about this weapon?  If it was like a big railway spike on a 2ft swingarm I'd totally get it, but it's just a thin dagger, so what gives?

By design it is slim enough to actually align with and pass through eye of the indvidual rings of metal that make up chainmail (chainmail also being the material ussually used to cover flex points like the armpit even in plate armors). The point of a pick axe is much blunter comparitively, and will engave the force-dispersing nature of the armor within, lets call it half to 3/4 of a inch of penetration, while the stiletto might get 3 or more inches inside you body before experienceing the slightest tug or drag from the metal components of that armor that just utterly failed to save your life.

My scholarship for melee arms is more aligned with Japanese than European equivalents, but even there the skuttlebutt is that when two fully armored warriors came to body-to-body down and dirty fighting in the mud, the decisive blow was delivered with a short stabing blade as often as a slashing sword.

[Sletchman]

It just does 1d4 damage, and objects make a save per attack and you can't sneak attack them. I don't think you can even hack through a stone door with a stiletto unless you have such strength you can hack through a stone door with just about anything.

Reread the rules for attacking objects - you add the AP to the damage value.  So that stiletto does between 9 and 12 damage, every swing.  Meanwhile, a Maul does 2-12 damage and an axe does 3-12.

Now that I know that the weapon is what I thought it was, I realise this is quite silly.  A Stiletto isn't actually going through much in the way of armour.  A houserule to fix the problem is a simple matter.  I just don't like changing rules until I understand the rule I'm changing completely.

By design it is slim enough to actually align with and pass through eye of the indvidual rings of metal that make up chainmail (chainmail also being the material ussually used to cover flex points like the armpit even in plate armors). The point of a pick axe is much blunter comparitively, and will engave the force-dispersing nature of the armor within, lets call it half to 3/4 of a inch of penetration, while the stiletto might get 3 or more inches inside you body before experienceing the slightest tug or drag from the metal components of that armor that just utterly failed to save your life.

Which is actually very funny, given that the armour that is the best protection against a stiletto is chainmail.  With its Edged Resistance 3 - you're basically immune to the weapon (save an extroadinary strength enemy).

A quick-and-dirty fix would be to remove the AP quality and insert a new one: 'Penetrating: This weapon ignores the penalties normally incurred when using the Cheap Shot trick.'

I think you mean "Called Shot trick" (not Cheap Shot), but yeah - my solution is fairly similar to this (I was gonna go with "Precise" instead of Penetrating though).  I just wanted to be sure it operated the way my instincts told me it would before moving forward with any house rule.

[Catodon]

This is a stiletto
<snip>

Cool.  So it is basically the same as I thought (just clearly no flick action due to the era represented in the books).  I really don't understand why it has AP8.  That's twice the AP of a Pick with zero swing force multiplication.  Am I totally missing something about this weapon?  If it was like a big railway spike on a 2ft swingarm I'd totally get it, but it's just a thin dagger, so what gives?

Also FC is not a simulationist game, It does not attempt to recapitulate real physics and/or results as GURPS does (sort of). Instead FC tries to provide a fast playing balanced game where the in game effects match with depictions in the genre.

FC is full of departures from the real world. For example in the real world cold blooded animals need about 1/10th the amount of food as a mammal of the same size and  can last months without eating at all.
Halflings would recieve 1/8 the amount of damage from a fall and a 11' giant about 8x normal damage. A chimp should be about 3x stronger than a typical human. All this REALLY bugs me some times but

None of this is easy to impliment within the framework of FC mechanics and if it was would make the game less fun.  So as players we all have to forget what we know sometimes and just roll with it.

[Sletchman]

Instead FC tries to provide a fast playing balanced game where the in game effects match with depictions in the genre.

The problem there is that it utterly invalidates every other knife - it's just too damn good.  Everyone on this board who has talked about playing a knife user (or having one in their group) has also mentioned the stiletto - that's pretty indicative of an imbalance.  If there was a logical and valid reason for that imbalance to exist then I'd leave it alone.  But since the reason seem to be so it can bypass the Called Shot rules (and apply the trick freely, and without penalty), I'm going to change it to be more in line with the rest of the weapons subsection (and stop Knife B/M/S from being "Stiletto B/M/S").

For the record: I'm totally fine with it being left as it is in the book - I'm not calling for errata on it or anything like that (and since every knife user clearly loves the stiletto I'm sure I'd be quite alone even if I were).  I just wanted to make sure that it actually doesn't penetrate armour before I made any changes (chain being the ironic exception).  I'm also good to let the discussion on it die here - I have a solution that I'm quite happy with for my own table.

[Goodlun]

I just wanted to make sure that it actually doesn't penetrate armour before I made any changes (chain being the ironic exception). 

I was under the impression that is exactly what it does, its punches through most armor rather easily its not a "precision" weapon its a high PSI tip.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-42_Stiletto
"While the V-42 had a double-edged blade like that of the Fairbairn-Sykes knife, it had a narrower stiletto blade profile designed to optimize penetration when used for thrusting, and the V-42 could easily penetrate a G.I. steel helmet and liner with a single thrust"

[Bhurano]

Hi there,

this might be a bit off-topic but when it comes down to arms, I do what I learned to do the hard way... bringing down the law.

Historically several weapons were banned or you needed to be in a fencing school or similar organizations and not to mention that most of the times you needed to be of a certain social standing.
The crossbow was banned by the church. Swords were only allowed for nobles, as most daggers and so on.

Over here in germany during medieval times commoners were only allowed to carry a knife.
They used that to their advantage with knives like the Bauernwehr or the Langes Messer (Long Knife).  That's nothing I wouldn't want to oppose. Technically still knives, just a bit to short for a sword.

If you use such restrictions there shouldn't be a problem at all. Sure that will stop no one to pack a stiletto, but what happens when they are searched for weapons at the city gates? Trouble may come their way. If you are not a noble or dressed and act as one you are in for a world of hurt - especially since the stiletto is clearly a weapon with only one purpose... what in all hell's would an upstanding citizen do with it, beside killing his betters?

Also I can't imagine that a city guard wouldn't bat an eye when heavily armed combat veterans enter the premises of a city. They would try to send them away or trying to getting their hands on the heavy stuff... they can have it back when they are not any longer dwell in the city or are known defenders of the crown or such stuff... in short have the reputation to act responsible.

If these laws and oddities can be explained everything is okay... in border regions any citizen might be required to know how to use a certain weapon to defend himself and the community at every possible time. A weapon that might otherwise completely unacceptable in the hands of a commoner.

[Takeru]

Instead FC tries to provide a fast playing balanced game where the in game effects match with depictions in the genre.

The problem there is that it utterly invalidates every other knife - it's just too damn good.  Everyone on this board who has talked about playing a knife user (or having one in their group) has also mentioned the stiletto - that's pretty indicative of an imbalance.  If there was a logical and valid reason for that imbalance to exist then I'd leave it alone.  But since the reason seem to be so it can bypass the Called Shot rules (and apply the trick freely, and without penalty), I'm going to change it to be more in line with the rest of the weapons subsection (and stop Knife B/M/S from being "Stiletto B/M/S").

It's the best against armor, which is its intended purpose. I'd personally say the "best" knife is actually an Armor Piercing Razor in the hands of an Assassin. You can cut through most armor effortlessly, you get Bleed (chance for ruining them for a whole fight) as well as Finesse and best of all, Excruciating. Excruciating means every time you hit they have to make TWO damage saves, and Shaken can stack really quickly into some pretty serious debuffs.

But the thing is, they're knives meant for two different situations. The Stilleto is the demonstrable best weapon... when you're fighting someone in articulated plate armor that you need to penetrate. When fighting someone with no armor, a Kukri or Razor can do some seriously impressive things, and you can't discount the plain old dagger being able to be thrown without needing an upgrade, oh and then there's the Kama for when you have to trip folks...

   It's the exact opposite of what you're saying. Each knife has a purpose, and even though my Assassin goes into battle with a Stiletto in one hand and a Razor in the other, all the other knives have their purpose and their place.

About the only thing the stiletto has going for it against enemies not wearing armor is that its threat range is 18, but that's not quite as impressive as it sounds when you compare it to other weapon qualities you can get with knives. The best knife-user takes advantage of "All knives are armed" and carries a weapon for every situation. Stilettos are great when I'm fighting a guy trundling around in plate, but against some zippy little bastard nipping at my heels? I'd much rather had a good Kukri or Razor in that hand since AP8 doesn't help you when your opponent isn't wearing heavy armor.

[Mister Andersen]

Sounds like the difference between piercing and slashing damage

[tfwfh]

Question about Explosive Damage.  Is the Reflex DC equal to the base damage rolled, or the actual damage the character would be subject to, after damage fall off and DR and whatever else?