Spycraft 3 - What Classes? [Was 'Scientist?']

[Morgenstern]

I'm sorta puzzled how "wheelman-y" people think a base class could be without Chases?

FantasyCraft didn't have dramatic conflicts or similar mini-games. Chases seem to bridge so many settings that putting them in a core rulebook is actually a (really) bad idea, because then that's more pages you duplicate over and over (chases IN SC3, but NOT IN 10kb? That way lies madness...).

So, if you strip all the chase-rules oriented stuff off of the 2.0 wheelman you get... the Lancer and Captain... or at least the parts of those that relate to vehicles/mounts. All the other things that made wheelmen good (BAB/skill mix/certain selectable abilities) are easy to reconstitute under another name, and more evocative that way.

I won't go so far as to say "flatly impossible" but expecting a chase-oriented base class in any product other than the book offering chases themselves seems to be making the horse go around back and push the cart. Hoestly I don't know how much I'd even want to see an expert class intensely focused on vehicles without those rules in hand.

[Goodlun]

I'm sorta puzzled how "wheelman-y" people think a base class could be without Chases?

I think the assumption among us that would really like to see a wheel man is that SC3 and 10K will have chases as you just pointed out this may not be the case.

[Regularguy]

I'm sorta puzzled how "wheelman-y" people think a base class could be without Chases?

FantasyCraft didn't have dramatic conflicts or similar mini-games. Chases seem to bridge so many settings that putting them in a core rulebook is actually a (really) bad idea, because then that's more pages you duplicate over and over (chases IN SC3, but NOT IN 10kb? That way lies madness...).

Well, you could maybe drop the "mini-game" approach (or make it optional) in favor of stuff that fits on a page or less and so makes for easy reprints: maybe it's just "use the combat rules, except you 'fight' to change the distance between pursued and pursuer: BAB gets replaced by the skill in question, and here's how you calculate the equivalent of VP/WP for each based off the size of the initial lead.  Get the other guy to zero and you catch up to him or get away clean, as appropriate."  Or whatever, so long as it's quick and portable.

[Morgenstern]

But then the class still does't work with a fuller mini-game when you get to it.

[Mister Andersen]

I think the suggestion was that you then don't introduce the fuller minigame.

I must admit, I do sort of like the idea of dramcons being reduced to something about the size on page of the grapple minigame.

Based on my experiences in my Predator PbP, the current Chase mechanic as written isn't welcoming of foot chases because unless you really cut down the accel/turn requirements, virtually every option is unavailable and in that case you might as well just make it straight opposed athletics rolls. Rather than basing the requirements for a particular strategy on absolutes, it would be better to base it on the relative difference in ratings between predator and prey

[mathey]

When we played SpyCraft 1.0, my group and I initially found Car Chases to be exciting and fun. We all agreed we wanted more of that sort of thing, up until the point that the Wheelman's relevant skill bonus had eclipsed everybody else's and his player sussed out a standard routine for choosing his maneuvers.

With 2.0, I was happy to see more options covering different situations, but when I actually ran them in Play-By-Post, all those modifiers and maneuver specific rules got to be a bit much. This was especially true when doing the Hacking conflict with a Hacker PC; unless I scaled DCs much higher than suggested by Threat Level, he waltzed through every step and could theoretically do any and everything that fell under the very broad realm of computers. I ended up using the abbreviated versions of the Chase and Hacking conflicts in my games, ultimately, which was a shame since I'd always liked the intention if not the execution of the full versions.

I'd like to see dramatic conflicts appropriate to the spy genre make a return in 3.0, personally, but only if they can live up to their names at all levels and for as many potential mixes of PCs as possible. They should be inclusive, not exclusive, and they should make for fun results with or without the players' success. While the 4th Edition D&D Skill Challenge rules had to be errata'd like crazy, I think they have the right idea in terms of trying to emphasize roleplaying, teamwork, and consequences. I also liked giving my players cards to use in game, but then I was a big Torg nerd and am probably an outlier.

[Goodlun]

Torg

Now that is a name I haven't heard in a very long time.  I actually can see master craft after a few more genre books being able to emulate torg pretty dang decently.

[Krensky]

Not surprising considering Pat's proclivities regarding Torg.

[Regularguy]

But then the class still does't work with a fuller mini-game when you get to it.

Not necessarily.  I mean, if you're dead set on eventually getting around to a fuller mini-game (which, like the man said, is an option I could take or leave), then you can painstakingly craft one that gives wheelmen a number of built-in advantages that guide off their class abilities, if you want -- or, sure, you could instead design one that omits anything of the sort, if you want.  It's your mini-game; you can build it however you like.

[Crafty_Pat]

Not surprising considering Pat's proclivities regarding Torg.

 

[mathey]

Yeah, there's a lot of hints of Torg and the related West End Games lines (Masterdeck, Shatterzone) in SpyCraft. Action Dice are reminiscent of Possibilities in a few ways, Campaign Qualities remind me of the World Laws for the Cosms, and the option to use "social skills" effectively in combat is also pretty Torgy. There's also a similar design philosophy regarding how you can achieve fun narrative results via crunchy mechanics.

A SpyCraft drama deck would be neat.

[Desertpuma]

A SpyCraft drama deck would be neat.

It would certainly be interesting. In fact, you could make a utilty MasterCraft drama deck. So it could be used with any of the MasterCraft products.

[pawsplay]

I don't have it in for the Wheelman. What I do have it in for is the wheelman as the getaway driver, the guy who sits in the van, and any other super-specialized activity which either a) gives the character significantly fewer opportunities to shine by doing what he's best at/using the core abilities he has than other PCs, b) discourages that player from leaving his area of specialty for fear of missing a chance or being outclassed by his teammates in adventuring or c) forces the GM to build his missions in a certain way (i.e. always including a chase in his missions) to make sure that the Wheelman has that chance to shine. It's not fair to the player, it's not fair to the group, and it's not fair to the GM. Chase feats are only useful once, since chases often only come up once or twice, during most missions. Compare that to a skill feat or combat feat, which is far more applicable in many situations. Why make a character that's only at his best one or two times in a mission, vs. being good in more broadly applicable times such as skill challenges, infiltrations, or combats?

Really, if a character is just "the getaway driver," why not make him a Contact with Drive X and some driving-related feats? Once per adventure, he drives like hell, and done.

[Crafty_Alex]

+1

[Regularguy]

Really, if a character is just "the getaway driver," why not make him a Contact with Drive X and some driving-related feats? Once per adventure, he drives like hell, and done.

Because that gets disturbing when it becomes a requirement.

When you restrict a build to NPCs by designating it off-limits for the players, you're making me feel like the PCs aren't the heroes; the real stars are the guys who excel in ways I can't.  If you're saying "the Contact drives like hell, by which I mean he's as good as a PC who specializes in it," then, okay, sure; if you're saying "the Contact drives like hell, better than a PC could," then I'm rolling my eyes.  (Why not require me to outsource the part about fighting like hell?  How about if I only ever get to call in the talented mechanic who plays saboteur and rigs up great stuff on the fly?  Man, if we likewise restrict the computer-hacking specialty to NPCs, I could be the fun personal lieutenant who gets to say wacky stuff!)