Spycraft 3 - What Classes? [Was 'Scientist?']

[Goodlun]

No they don't. They get Chase feats.

Try this for size: what sort of technical expertise does Bond show? Has he ever repaired a broken vehicle or electronic system? I know he's disarmed a couple of nukes (The Spy Who Loved Me and Octopussy), but I think that's really it. The Wheelman class is quite technologically adept.

And apart from the infamous barrel roll on the bridge, how many other examples have there been of Bond being an over-the-top master of vehicle handling?

Opps you are right for some reason I was thinking they can take gear or chase feats.  Maybe I am thinking classic spycraft or maybe just maybe I am crazy.

[Regularguy]

You do realise that a sizeable chunk of the stuff you write off as being down to Q and M are just the means by which his class features are being implemented into the narrative, yes?

I realize one can do it that way, yes.  And you presumably realize Bond could be written up without such class features, only supplying whichever abilities can't thereby be pawned off on another character or two.  My idea of a balanced class is one that (a) lets a character do everything Bond can manage solo, or (b) lets a character supply all the goodies M can; is your idea of a balanced class one that lets a character do both on the strength of a single stats-and-skills-and-class-abilities build?

Try this for size: what sort of technical expertise does Bond show? Has he ever repaired a broken vehicle or electronic system? I know he's disarmed a couple of nukes (The Spy Who Loved Me and Octopussy), but I think that's really it. The Wheelman class is quite technologically adept.

He's pretty terrific at sabotage.  Also, he somehow gets past that electrified grating in DOCTOR NO, and neatly triggers the automated-door mechanisms in ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE, and MacGyvers up some improvised scuba gear in VIEW TO A KILL, and so on.  As for repairing a broken vehicle or electronic system -- aw, c'mon, you've seen the stuff he uses; not only do the tires re-inflate, but the invisibility circuitry repairs itself at the last possible second for Bond to get the win (which, if anything, arguably suggests a class ability).

And apart from the infamous barrel roll on the bridge, how many other examples have there been of Bond being an over-the-top master of vehicle handling?

Dude got a semi truck up on half its wheels to dodge missile fire.

[Crafty_Alex]

I've never bought Bond as a Wheelman. The only thing he's ever done that's distinctly Wheelman-ish is That's Impossible, and there's no saying a ridiculous amount of action dice at the right time (which he doubtlessly has) could help for the Triumphs necessary to do something like that. A driver expert class maybe, but Wheelman can't be his class.

[Regularguy]

I've never bought Bond as a Wheelman. The only thing he's ever done that's distinctly Wheelman-ish is That's Impossible, and there's no saying a ridiculous amount of action dice at the right time (which he doubtlessly has) could help for the Triumphs necessary to do something like that.

The way I see it, you could use a ridiculous amount of action dice on his vehicular stuff, or you could swing it just by dint of being a high-level Wheelman with a ton of bonus feats -- thereby freeing up that ridiculous amount of action dice for all the other stuff he does.  Why prefer the former over the latter?

[Desertpuma]

Bond is a former Soldier gone the High Roller route with loads of Action Dice and big bonuses for them. He can make intuitive fixes on things in a jam because of said AD. Now, I do believe he is a very skilled driver/pilot and SCUBA diver with a talent for demolitions and seduction. If there is a Knowledge skill, he'd have a high amount in that too. The James Bond RPG used the Connoisseur skill or Field of Expertise to simulate much of what he knows or does in many ways regarding things like wine, champagne, Baccarat, etc. He also has a large number of connections in places of high society based on his Gambling.

[Goodlun]

I've never bought Bond as a Wheelman. The only thing he's ever done that's distinctly Wheelman-ish is That's Impossible, and there's no saying a ridiculous amount of action dice at the right time (which he doubtlessly has) could help for the Triumphs necessary to do something like that.

The way I see it, you could use a ridiculous amount of action dice on his vehicular stuff, or you could swing it just by dint of being a high-level Wheelman with a ton of bonus feats -- thereby freeing up that ridiculous amount of action dice for all the other stuff he does.  Why prefer the former over the latter?

The very fact that you can make a compelling argument that Bond is a wheel man goes to show that the class itself doesn't have to be a sit in the van and wait for the chase scene sort of class.  It also goes to show the strength of Spycraft 2.0s flexibility.  I think if wheel man was approached again with more of a transporter package handler feel it would make for a very good core base class. 
Of course book space is at a premium so I am just going to through this one out there a free  wheelman PDF.

[mathey]

My personal take on Bond is that he's the wild card that MI6 throws into a situation when they're desperate for a Hail Mary. Where other spies may pride themselves on not being noticed, 007's sort of a one-man lightning rod and international incident waiting to happen. I think he can Blend when he wants to (he walks into an enemy facility and just adopts a lab coat in Diamonds Are Forever, if memory serves), but that's not really his usual modus operandi. He prefers to make a big noise, draw out the bad guys, then improvise like crazy to deal with the numerous attempts to kill him.

If I was to try and pinpoint the most consistently displayed skill sets Bond has I guess I'd go with the following:

Seduction, obviously. Bond is great at sexxin' up the ladies. This has flipped more than one enemy agent.

Athletics. Bond is good at climbing, running, skiing, swimming, and probably hopscotch. He's NOT acrobatic, but he is quite brawny and quick.

Fast Talk/Taunt/Conversation. Bond has always been good at quips and drawing people out to his advantage, even if they loathe him and want him dead.

Drive/Pilot/Sail. Bond can drive anything; he can crash anything, too, because half or more of his chase scenes ends with his vehicle in flames. Sometimes it also ends with him unconscious.

Shootin'. Bond is a capable marksman, but my take has always been that he does better when he has the drop on the other guy. Once there's a full scale firefight, I think he tends to favor running.

Punchin'/Stabbin'. Bond is fair to good in one on one hand to hand, but when faced with a deadly martial artist type or strong dude (Oddjob) he has to cheat and cheat a lot, utilizing his environs to improvise the means to kill 'em. He tends to fare worse against large numbers of henchmen in melee, as well; it seems like he gets kayoed when he's in a multiple foe hand-to-hand fight pretty frequently.

Gambling. Bond - both in the books and in the movies - can play games of chance real good. He's not just lucky, he can read other players and play the odds really well.

Connoisseur. Bond - also in both sources - loves the high life and is pretty pretentious in his tastes.

Current Events. This covers Bond's ability to predict what M is going to tell him in his briefings; he apparently spends at least some time reading up on hot topics between missions.

[aegis]

Weirdly enough, I believe the Wheelman will have a better place in 10kB than in Spycraft. Between attack-and-run criminals and police enforcers with a specialty in driving, there are a lot of iconic characters that belong to the genre. For example, the Transporter is more a film of gangsters (though not the same type as those you may find in the Maltese Falcon of course) than an espionage movie to me. I don't say 10kB needs a Wheelman base class, I'm just saying I believe it will fit better in this book than in SC3. But maybe that's just me ... 

[snake]

Weirdly enough, I believe the Wheelman will have a better place in 10kB than in Spycraft. Between attack-and-run criminals and police enforcers with a specialty in driving, there are a lot of iconic characters that belong to the genre. For example, the Transporter is more a film of gangsters (though not the same type as those you may find in the Maltese Falcon of course) than an espionage movie to me. I don't say 10kB needs a Wheelman base class, I'm just saying I believe it will fit better in this book than in SC3. But maybe that's just me ... 

I agree with you, aegis, that a Wheelman should have a part in a crime game. A Wheelman is the guy sat in he getaway car, outside the bank, with the engine running.......   

[Crafty_Alex]

I agree with you, aegis, that a Wheelman should have a part in a crime game. A Wheelman is the guy sat in he getaway car, outside the bank, with the engine running.......   

See, that there. The guy who sits in the car - from a play design standpoint, that's not what we want. Why should a PC be put on the sidelines by his archetype? Larry of Ronin - doubtlessly a Wheelman - sat in the car, too. Bleah.

[Goodlun]

I agree with you, aegis, that a Wheelman should have a part in a crime game. A Wheelman is the guy sat in he getaway car, outside the bank, with the engine running.......   

I think part of the problem is people are hung up on the name.  Where as the scope of the character goes so far beyond just driving.  They have a great list of class skills, they get more than enough  bonus chase feats to take care of their area of expertise leaving all other feats they get use able for other things.  The BAB means there is no reason what so ever that they should not be right their backing up the other characters in any sort of fight.  The main focus being good in a chase transfers to any sort of vehicle with the right choices of forte.  So most of the "Wheelmen" in my group have had a focus on being a pilot(helicopter). 

Apparently my experiences are not the norm with regards to the wheel man class as NO one in my group would ever just sit out of an adventure in any system as any class.  This does present problems in something like Mech Warrior(Battletech) but not so much in most D20 products.

[Desertpuma]

But most of the Fast & Furious series is about a group of Wheelmen as well. It all depends on the actual story being told. I do think that Wheelman are definitively more 10KB than Spycraft 3rd. As a matter of fact, they are more prone to not being just in the car or the van in a 10KB setting. They will be fixing it up for the job or being inside the bank helping out.

The difference in Point Break vs Heat for the bank jobs with respect to the Wheelman is that Dennis Haysbert's character in Heat is more like a contact or a connection making him a NPC than any of the surfing crew in Point Break.

Look at the Italian Job. There is only really one guy, Jason Statham's character, who is probably a Wheelman. The rest are of the Thief class or in one case the Hacker class.

[Goodlun]

Bu I do think that Wheelman are definitively more 10KB than Spycraft 3rd. As a matter of fact, they are more prone to not being just in the car or the van in a 10KB setting.

I certainly can't argue against the fact that they most certainly are more pervasive in a 10KB setting.  I think the biggest problem is they are pretty much see them in most forms of actiony adventure modern/future settings. 
I am how ever getting the feeling that Alex dislikes the class as a whole(this could easily be a misinterpretation of his words and I don't want to speak for him.)  I think he has a valid point in the fact there should never be a base class that spends most of the adventure doing absolutely nothing than be pretty much the only person doing something during on big scene.  This is a very serious issue indeed.  I think the wheelman in fiction is certainly iconic and deep enough to deserve a base class vs being regulated to an expert class.  Given the choice between 10k or Spycraft I would most likely put it in 10k myself but thinks it fits in either and since the products will be interchangeable and I will have both it doesn't matter much to me where it is.  As long as its somewhere(not in a PDF that I have to separately pay for) I will be happy.

[Goodlun]

I do honestly think one of the ways to help mitigate the sit in the van attitude is a change in name(Part of how it is sold to players).
The Transporter(or something better)
Depending on the campaign, a transporter could be....
*a tough wheelman for the mob
*a streetwise street racer
*a good hearted car thief
*an ace pilot
ect ect ect

[Crafty_Alex]

I certainly can't argue against the fact that they most certainly are more pervasive in a 10KB setting.  I think the biggest problem is they are pretty much see them in most forms of actiony adventure modern/future settings. 

I disagree. I think cars and car chases feature centrally in some modern genres, but disagree a guy who's central shtick is "always the driver" is a central feature in espionage, cyberpunk, horror, technothriller, military, crime, etc. The characters we see in popular fiction may drive, but they do lots of other stuff outside that which is far more definitive of them as characters (literally and play-wise) not related to driving.

I am how ever getting the feeling that Alex dislikes the class as a whole(this could easily be a misinterpretation of his words and I don't want to speak for him.)  I think he has a valid point in the fact there should never be a base class that spends most of the adventure doing absolutely nothing than be pretty much the only person doing something during on big scene.  This is a very serious issue indeed. 

I don't have it in for the Wheelman. What I do have it in for is the wheelman as the getaway driver, the guy who sits in the van, and any other super-specialized activity which either a) gives the character significantly fewer opportunities to shine by doing what he's best at/using the core abilities he has than other PCs, b) discourages that player from leaving his area of specialty for fear of missing a chance or being outclassed by his teammates in adventuring or c) forces the GM to build his missions in a certain way (i.e. always including a chase in his missions) to make sure that the Wheelman has that chance to shine. It's not fair to the player, it's not fair to the group, and it's not fair to the GM. Chase feats are only useful once, since chases often only come up once or twice, during most missions. Compare that to a skill feat or combat feat, which is far more applicable in many situations. Why make a character that's only at his best one or two times in a mission, vs. being good in more broadly applicable times such as skill challenges, infiltrations, or combats?

I think the wheelman in fiction is certainly iconic and deep enough to deserve a base class vs being regulated to an expert class.

You and I are going to have to agree to disagree, then. There are plenty of other ways to have a guy who's good at driving - even doing stuff we define as Wheelman-only right now - through feats, tricks, skill uses, and expert classes. Saying a base class is the only possible solution shackles the entire conversation and set of possibilities. And the things we really see as definitively Wheelman - performing a That's Impossible move, kicking real ass in a chase - are things that don't apply to the base class at low levels right now. A wheelman isn't really a wheelman until the higher levels...so if we had a wheelman prestige class, for example, that had those ablities but started you with the cool stuff, are you out anything? Actually, you're probably up, because that newly minted wheelman has the starting abilities of another class with a broader applicability as a foundation. 

Given the choice between 10k or Spycraft I would most likely put it in 10k myself but thinks it fits in either and since the products will be interchangeable and I will have both it doesn't matter much to me where it is.  As long as its somewhere(not in a PDF that I have to separately pay for) I will be happy.

I don't know it's really fair to say "Either give it to me in the book or just give it away." I don't see Crafty as being indebted to the community to produce products for free - we have to eat too