Spycraft 3 - What Classes? [Was 'Scientist?']

[Regularguy]

I know that the argument is that the wheelman has great base attack, an excellent skill list, and can use it's level based feats to fill in many gaps - and all of this is completely true.  The problem is that none of these things come from actually being a Wheelman.  You could do the same thing with your skill list and level based feats almost any other class.

Maybe it is a better class for a smaller group where it is easier to focus in on someone for a little bit and any extra body with skills that someone else hasn't taken really matter.

Hmm.  Actually, that's casting thing whole thing in a new light for me.

Let's say you're in a solo game; you can play a specialist who does his schtick great and does the getaway pretty well if something goes wrong -- or you can play a wheeelman who does pretty well at that specialty and is great at the getaway.  So whether you're conducting surveillance and might need to gun the engine if spotted, or you're persuasively recruiting an in-place asset while ready to rush off if he's followed to your meet, or you're working a heist and may need to run upon tripping an alarm on the way out, to spy for him, or you're the archetypal sniper who fires a shot and then clears out, Wheelman is maybe as viable an approach as shorting yourself on Plan B to excel a bit more at Plan A.

But if you're working alongside someone who already does great at that specialty, you're just along to supply the Plan B getaway.  Well, unless the requisite specialty involves mechanical sabotage, or spying via drone, or, going undercover as a racecar driver, or whatever.  But still.  Hmm.  This'll take some thought.

[Desertpuma]

The number of people in your gaming group can have an influence on who plays what. I ran a 3 person team once: a Scientist (of pharmacology specifically), a Fixer/Faceman mix, and a Wheelman (who besides being a devotee of boats and improvised weapons also made his own moonshine on the Scientist's bunsen burners when it was his turn on watch. Codename: Gator)

Now that is a nice 3 man team.  Looks like most bases would be covered pretty decently.

Yes, it was more of a street oriented game similar to Burn Notice blended with Leverage (criminals rehabed and now working on the side of Justice). The Scientist was a former drug dealer, the Fixer/Faceman a former conman (think a young Danny Ocean), and Gator was a former bootlegger (and was a 4th generation at that). They tended to run from major fights but tackle small ones. There was a lot of bravado and intimidation unless Gator was piloting a speedboat or using improvised weapons (which he excelled at and always looked for a new item to make into a weapon).

[Goodlun]

They tended to run from major fights but tackle small ones.

I have no idea of how long it took me(but it was a while) to get that this is a perfectly acceptable tactic through to the people I play with.  Just because I put a fight out their does not mean you need to engage in it to advance the story.

[Desertpuma]

Yeah, it was a lot of barroom brawl good, drug dealer & entourage of 5 cars bad.

Gator was the weapons guy (if you can consider a bolt action rifle making him so) and they rarely used more than pistols. This was partially because they did not want to attract too much attention from law enforcement. The main reason for that was their records were only partially cleared. The more jobs they did and succeeded at the more their records were cleared. It was a nice subplot to run with that they all had from the beginning. But until their records were completely wiped clean they had to watch out for law enforcement.

[Crafty_Alex]

The problem is also that people playing the Wheelman, on the average with few exceptions, choose to sit in the vehicle.

You are totally correct here - but the cause of the problem is the Wheelman class itself.  Players see that as a level 6 wheelman they have a Core Ability, a minimum of 3 Chase feats, Vehicle Familiarity and Drivers Only - all of which only apply to vehicles or chase scenes.  At level 6 the only thing they have that doesn't apply to vehicles is Manual Adjustment*.  That's the reason most players choose to sit in the vehicle - if all their abilities are based on being in a vehicle, why the hell would they want to leave it?

I know that the argument is that the wheelman has great base attack, an excellent skill list, and can use it's level based feats to fill in many gaps - and all of this is completely true.  The problem is that none of these things come from actually being a Wheelman.  You could do the same thing with your skill list and level based feats almost any other class.  Those skills aren't unique to the Wheelman - the teams Intruder can have all of them too [except perhaps Profession, which doesn't exist in the new hotness anyway] as can others on the team.

For what it's worth, I like the Wheelman class - if I had my way the Chase feats would become "Chase or Gear" to make him a more flexible character, but I still like it.  Has anyone played a wheelman in a long term game that had no chases, when you have plenty of chase feats that never come into play?  I played a level 11 Wheelman [complete with 7 or 8 chase feats] and all I got to use from my class was Manual Adjustment.  It was a frustrating thing.  Yes you have your skills and level feats, but most of your class abilities will never come up, and that sucks.

<sub>* I know that several of the Drivers Only abilities are useful outside of chase sequences and vehicles, but my experiance shows the players pick things like Elbow Grease and Skill Mastery (Not Drive) long after they grab the other cool stuff - notably Most Deadly, Spare Keys and Trade In.

** Also this post isn't actually directed entirely at you Desertpuma, you just had a good quote to use.</sub>

This. This is EXACTLY what I'm taking about. Even if some people are able to make the class work, there's a number of other folks who want to just be what it says on the tin. And that label, when backed up wthee necessary array of abilities to meet that expectation as a 20 level base class by necessity are creating a shackle. Even if we have a 50% "pass/fail" rate, it's too much to justify the traditional approach in this designers opinion.

[Oleyo]

Aubery and Hornblower aren't Captains, they don't have Personal Lieutnants.

Stephen Maturin & William Bush would disagree

Other players.

Don't forget Aubrey's actual First Lieutenant who followed or was brought along from command to command...and who's career Aubrey personally guided.  Definite personal lieutenant.  Which is not to mention Preserved Killick and Babbington, he could have any number of personal lieutenants.  Even followers.  I agree with him being a Captain through and through...inspiring others to greatness is his forte.

I do agree that Maturin is much too independent to be a PL though.

[Oleyo]

I may as well weigh in on the Wheelman discussion:  I want to see a wheelman type as an Expert Class.  I loved chases in SC 2.0, but the chase feats seemed way to specific to me.  In either case, maybe he could be presented more as a "Gearhead" and be good with using/obtaining all sorts of vehicles/machines/gadgets.

[Regularguy]

This. This is EXACTLY what I'm taking about. Even if some people are able to make the class work, there's a number of other folks who want to just be what it says on the tin. And that label, when backed up wthee necessary array of abilities to meet that expectation as a 20 level base class by necessity are creating a shackle. Even if we have a 50% "pass/fail" rate, it's too much to justify the traditional approach in this designers opinion.

Is a 50% pass/fail rate in that regard okay if it's an Expert class?

[Crafty_Pat]

This. This is EXACTLY what I'm taking about. Even if some people are able to make the class work, there's a number of other folks who want to just be what it says on the tin. And that label, when backed up wthee necessary array of abilities to meet that expectation as a 20 level base class by necessity are creating a shackle. Even if we have a 50% "pass/fail" rate, it's too much to justify the traditional approach in this designers opinion.

Is a 50% pass/fail rate in that regard okay if it's an Expert class?

He means a 50% pass/fail rate with regard to the positive vs. negative impacts a Wheelman base class would have in most groups - by our (fairly well) educated estimation, of course.

[Regularguy]

Is a 50% pass/fail rate in that regard okay if it's an Expert class?

He means a 50% pass/fail rate with regard to the positive vs. negative impacts a Wheelman base class would have in most groups - by our (fairly well) educated estimation, of course.

I get that.

What I'm asking is whether a Wheelman expert class is likewise going to have that same 50% pass/fail rate -- for whichever "impacts" concern you -- in most groups.  Maybe you worry he'll be That Guy Who Stays In The Van instead of coming along during the mission.  Maybe you worry that adventures largely default to giving Con Man and Cat Burglar chances aplenty to showcase their class abilities but you really need to go out of your way to always plot in a chase for That Guy Who Stays In The Van.  Maybe it's something else entirely.

I'm merely asking whether those same "with regard to the positive vs. negative impacts a Wheelman base class would have in most groups" concerns likewise apply when evaluating a potential Expert class.

[Crafty_Pat]

What I'm asking is whether a Wheelman expert class is likewise going to have that same 50% pass/fail rate -- for whichever "impacts" concern you -- in most groups.  Maybe you worry he'll be That Guy Who Stays In The Van instead of coming along during the mission.  Maybe you worry that adventures largely default to giving Con Man and Cat Burglar chances aplenty to showcase their class abilities but you really need to go out of your way to always plot in a chase for That Guy Who Stays In The Van.  Maybe it's something else entirely.

Alex has well stated our concerns with the base class earlier in this thread.

I'm merely asking whether those same "with regard to the positive vs. negative impacts a Wheelman base class would have in most groups" concerns likewise apply when evaluating a potential Expert class.

Maybe, maybe not. We have made no formal decisions regarding wheelmen, hackers, or any other elements of the new game. Everything remains a work in progress and part of the ongoing discussion - for now.

[Goodlun]

While it seems pretty obvious at this point I just want to make sure, if we do see a wheel man class it will be an expert class with virtually no chance of seeing it in a base class form, correct?

[Crafty_Pat]

While it seems pretty obvious at this point I just want to make sure, if we do see a wheel man class it will be an expert class with virtually no chance of seeing it in a base class form, correct?

We're a long way from stating anything with that level of certainty, or from effectively previewing anything final (which is what we'd be doing if we absolutely confirmed or denied anything).

That said, I'm gonna ask that we restrict new posts on this topic to points that haven't already been made, because retreading old ground is counter-productive for everyone. Thanks!

[Nepenthe]

While it seems pretty obvious at this point I just want to make sure, if we do see a wheel man class it will be an expert class with virtually no chance of seeing it in a base class form, correct?

Ace? Street Knight?! Transporter?!?

[Goodlun]

While it seems pretty obvious at this point I just want to make sure, if we do see a wheel man class it will be an expert class with virtually no chance of seeing it in a base class form, correct?

Ace? Street Knight?! Transporter?!?

well it sounds like we may end up with just a plain old wheel man expert class.  I wonder if the previous expert classes would then more for great masterclasses as you are narrowing the focus even more.