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Author Topic: Dragon Disciple conversion  (Read 1542 times)
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« on: April 26, 2010, 11:06:11 AM »

Open for feedback.

Dragon Disciple

BAB medium
Fort high
Ref low
Will high
Def med
Init low
Lifestyle low
Legend medium
SP medium

Requirements: Draconic Heritage feat, Intimidate 6+ ranks, Spellcasting 4+ ranks, Language (Draconic)

1: dragonhide, draconic sorcery
2: Tooth and claw I
3: ability increase
4: Circle of power I, draconic senses
5: bonus feat
6: Dragon unleashed
7: Tooth and claw II, ability increase
8: Circle of power II, greater breath
9: bonus feat
10: Dragon apotheosis

Class Features:
Favored Attributes: Intelligence, Strength, Charisma
Caster: Each level in this class increases your Casting Level by 1.
Class Skills: Crafting, Impress, Intimidate, Investigate, Notice, Resolve, Search, Tactics
Skill Points: 4 + Int modifier per level
Vitality: 12 + Con modifier per level

Core Ability
Draconic Sorcery: You gain Spell Power as a bonus feat. Additionally, you may count Species feats as Spellcasting feats any time that number is used.

Dragonhide: You are tougher than most creatures of your birth species. You gain thick hide 3.
Tooth and claw I: At Level 2, you gain Claw I and Bite I natural attacks.
Tooth and claw II: At Level 7, you gain an additional Claw I natural attack.
Ability increase: At level 3 and level 7, the higher of your Str or Int increase by 1.
Circle of power I: At Level 4, you may cast level 1 and lower spells you know.
Circle of power II: At Level 8, you may cast level 2 and lower spells you know.
Draconic seneses: At Level 4, you gain darkvision I and your maximum ranks in Notice increase to career level + 5.
Bonus feat At Level 5 and Level 9, you gain a bonus Species, Spellcasting, or Unarmed Combat feat.
Dragon unleashed: At Level 6, you gain Draconic Legacy and Truescale as bonus feats, ignoring level 1 and species prerequisites.
Greater breath: At 8th level, you gain Greater Breath as a bonus feat.
Dragon apothesis: At level 10, you are considered a dragon. You gain Mighty Breath as a bonus feat. Sleep is a never a terminal condition for you. You gain thick hide 3, and your Charisma increases by 1.
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« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2010, 10:10:24 AM »

Does anyone see any problems, particularly, what do you guys think of the level 6 ability? Is this a class that seems appealing? Should I add it to the wiki?
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Jake
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« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2010, 10:54:20 AM »

Draconic Heritage already gives you thick hide 3, so just put "your thick hide bonus increases by 1". Expert classes only have 3 requirements so I'd ditch intimidate. 7 feats is a lot, maybe trim those down.

What do you think of

Draconic Enlightenment: Once per round you may spend an action die to reduce the level of an Energy or Glory spell you know by 1.

1 Dragon Reborn I: You gain Claw I attack
2 The Golden Flame I: You gain an additional Spellcasting feat and your lifestyle increases by +1.
3 Dragon Reborn II: You gain an additional Claw I attack
4 Circle of Power I, Menacing Threat
5 Dragon Reborn III: You gain Bite I attack
6 You gain Draconic Legacy as a bonus feat.
7 Dragon Reborn IV: You gain Tail Snap I
The Golden Flame I: You gain an additional Spellcasting feat and your lifestyle increases by an additional +1 (for a total of +2).
8 Circle of Power II, Improved Senses (sight)
9 Dragon Reborn V: You gain Trample I
10 Your size and natural attacks increase by 2 grades. Additionally you gain Frenzy I.
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« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2010, 09:30:36 PM »

Draconic Heritage already gives you thick hide 3, so just put "your thick hide bonus increases by 1".

I could. I guess I was feeling clever.

Quote
Expert classes only have 3 requirements so I'd ditch intimidate. 7 feats is a lot, maybe trim those down.

Language (Draconic) is not what I would consider a steep requirement. Intimidate goes with menacing threat, and also favors the Sorcerer specialty.

Quote
What do you think of

Draconic Enlightenment: Once per round you may spend an action die to reduce the level of an Energy or Glory spell you know by 1.

Apart from slightly adjusting the DC, it looks like a less powerful version of the Mage's core ability.

Quote
1 Dragon Reborn I: You gain Claw I attack
2 The Golden Flame I: You gain an additional Spellcasting feat and your lifestyle increases by +1.
3 Dragon Reborn II: You gain an additional Claw I attack
4 Circle of Power I, Menacing Threat
5 Dragon Reborn III: You gain Bite I attack
6 You gain Draconic Legacy as a bonus feat.
7 Dragon Reborn IV: You gain Tail Snap I
The Golden Flame I: You gain an additional Spellcasting feat and your lifestyle increases by an additional +1 (for a total of +2).
8 Circle of Power II, Improved Senses (sight)
9 Dragon Reborn V: You gain Trample I
10 Your size and natural attacks increase by 2 grades. Additionally you gain Frenzy I.

I have a hard time with Frenzy on a PC. Also, trample feels odd, and would be not very useful for small and medium dragon disciples.

The lifestyle increases seem off to me. Isn't lifestyle progression already built into a class?
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« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2010, 11:48:57 PM »

Quote
Apart from slightly adjusting the DC, it looks like a less powerful version of the Mage's core ability.

It lets the player use spells that are at a hire level than he could normally cast. Fireball I becomes a level 2 spell instead of 3, Divine Power becomes level 3. Very useful especially when the PC receives fewer Circle of Power abilities when compared to Mage.


Quote
I have a hard time with Frenzy on a PC.

Me too, but it's supposed to be a game breaker, just throwing it out there.

Quote
Also, trample feels odd, and would be not very useful for small and medium dragon disciples.

But at level 10 the PC's size goes up.

Quote
The lifestyle increases seem off to me. Isn't lifestyle progression already built into a class?

I like the LS bump, dragons are supposed to be hoarding treasure. The Lancer, Assassin, Gallant, and I think one other class gain renown bonuses, which are normally achieved through Reputation. Why not give a class a LS bonus?
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« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2010, 01:34:41 AM »

The big question here is what are you trying to achieve with this Expert Class? Do Dragon Disciples have a particular place within the campaign world, or is this just a way for a PC to become more draconic?

If it is the latter, then what does this ExC achieve that the Draconic Heritage/Legacy feats do not?
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« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2010, 01:42:54 AM »

Well, I'm trying to stay close to the roots. The idea is that sorcerers have draconic blood, and some study this heritage to become more draconic in nature. Beyond what is granted by the Heritage/Legacy feats, the key features are going to be the development of claws and a bite and other dragon-like features, in addition to a mild boost in magical power. One issue, of a sort, is that a lot of enhancements are available as Drake feats, and obviously the class needs to stand up as more than bag o' feats.

Original crunch:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm
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« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2010, 02:16:03 AM »

I'm not really fond of the concept, but the execution seems nice. I guess I agree with Wolvie on this one. Without further background or world integration, the class feels a little hollow. Maybe that's just me, but I don't really feel FC lacks base or expert classes. Of course, you can always find new ones, but the more is not always the merrier. Their concepts must remain strong, wide, and almost generic. I feel like we lose a little bit of the three with "generic D&D"-based classes.

What I would be really interested in seeing, on the other hand, would be master classes based on classic D&D settings (not necessarily D&D by the way). These are really meant to stick to a real, tangible concept, strongly attached to a campaign world. What about FR's Incatatrixes? Planescape's Planewalkers? Midnight's Legates? Ravenloft's Raven Knights? L5R's Emerald Guardians? Freeport's Pirate Kings? That's only my opinion, but I'm just sayin'... Smiley
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 07:58:26 AM by aegis » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2010, 10:51:56 AM »

I can appreciate that. If nothing else, this is a fun exercise.

I had an interesting thought. What if I took Dragon Disciple a little more literally?

Path of the Dragon
Dragon I: You gain the Draconic Heritage feat.
Dragon II: You may cast Wild Side I (Claw or Bite) twice per scene.
Dragon III: Choose one Alignment skill. Your maximum ranks in that skil increases to your Career Level + 8.
Dragon IV: You gain Draconic Legacy as a bonus feat.
Dragon V: Your Strength score raises by 2 and you gain Truescale as a bonus feat.
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« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2010, 02:02:50 PM »

Honestly, the DD feels more like a Master class then a Expert class.
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« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2010, 04:02:42 PM »

Honestly, the DD feels more like a Master class then a Expert class.

That does sound like the way it should be done.

Requirements: Draconic Legacy or Drake, Intimidate +10, Spellcasting +6


Tooth and claw I: At Level 1, you gain Claw I and Bite I natural attacks.
Circle of power I: At Level 2, you may cast level 1 and lower spells you know.
Tooth and claw II: At Level 3, you gain an additional Claw I natural attack.
Circle of power II: At Level 4, you may cast level 2 and lower spells you know.
Dragon unleashed: At Level 5, you gain Greater Breath and Truescale as bonus feats, ignoring level 1 prerequisite. Additionally your species feats count as spell feats when fulfilling prerequisites and requirements or determining the effects of any ability.
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« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2010, 07:36:48 PM »

Honestly, the DD feels more like a Master class then a Expert class.

Simply because it has few distinct abilities, or because it's transformative?
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« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2010, 07:47:32 PM »

Honestly, the DD feels more like a Master class then a Expert class.

Simply because it has few distinct abilities, or because it's transformative?

Both. Also, it's more a capstone then a specialization. The Expert classes are typically focused on improving a certain aspect of something you do. The Master classes, we've seen are more about focusing on who your are. Look at the Centurion, Goliath, and Menace in World on Fire, or the Legendary Foo classes in the Origin of Species.

Sorcerer and the Dragon species feats already feel like a DD in D&D.
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« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2010, 08:33:17 PM »

I saw the DD as focusing on a breath weapon and some backup natural attacks, with magic as an adjunct. Still, the version I came up with doesn't offer a lot of dynamic choices in play. You would cast a spell if one applied, breathe fire if possible, and flurry with claws and bite if you had to.
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« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2010, 01:00:46 AM »

I had an interesting thought. What if I took Dragon Disciple a little more literally?
This is indeed much more interesting. Any Tiamat cultist will need this! Thanks (and Jake's version is nice too, I will mix them up).
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