Author Topic: Arizona passed new gun legislation that supercedes federal law  (Read 5582 times)

Desertpuma

  • Control
  • ******
  • Posts: 4727
  • Highest Level LSpy Agent 16th, almost 17th
    • View Profile
    • Crusaders Citadel
Re: Arizona passed new gun legislation that supercedes federal law
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2010, 05:05:12 PM »
It is also worth mentioning that the military has no specific allegiance to the government but is sworn to defend the Constitution against "all enemies foreign and domestic."

This is the most key statement here. The US military defends the Constitution not the Congress or the White House or the Supreme Court. It defends the paper that gave those branches of government life and their powers even against Congress.


Living Spycraft Masterm

Doublebond

  • Guest
Re: Arizona passed new gun legislation that supercedes federal law
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2010, 05:11:56 PM »
You know, I kind of feel a bit of pride that the founding fathers had the balls to give every American the right to overthrow the  government. I'm almost certain it was the first time such a concept was implemented, though I'm unsure if other governments since have copied it or not. Anyone know?

Desertpuma

  • Control
  • ******
  • Posts: 4727
  • Highest Level LSpy Agent 16th, almost 17th
    • View Profile
    • Crusaders Citadel
Re: Arizona passed new gun legislation that supercedes federal law
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2010, 05:22:55 PM »
Not offhand ... I do know they gave Congress the rights to levy taxes and declare war specifically as a response to King George III. If the President had them, it would just like offering that up. He still gets to be C-in-C but that's where it ends. I love our Checks-n-Balances system and it is one of the main reasons we still exist as a country.


Living Spycraft Masterm

MilitiaJim

  • Control
  • ******
  • Posts: 4747
    • View Profile
    • My lame little LJ
Re: Arizona passed new gun legislation that supercedes federal law
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2010, 06:29:10 PM »
May I also mention that the only arms the Federal government may ban are those with no military purpose.  (People v. Miller, for those who care.)
"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)

Doublebond

  • Guest
Re: Arizona passed new gun legislation that supercedes federal law
« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2010, 07:17:51 PM »
May I also mention that the only arms the Federal government may ban are those with no military purpose.  (People v. Miller, for those who care.)

Am I reading this right? It's impossible for the government to ban people from owning nukes?

MilitiaJim

  • Control
  • ******
  • Posts: 4747
    • View Profile
    • My lame little LJ
Re: Arizona passed new gun legislation that supercedes federal law
« Reply #50 on: April 07, 2010, 07:24:09 PM »
May I also mention that the only arms the Federal government may ban are those with no military purpose.  (People v. Miller, for those who care.)
Am I reading this right? It's impossible for the government to ban people from owning nukes?
An appropriately broad reading of the 2nd Amendment could lead to that conclusion.  Though a ban on most possessions of radiological material is in effect.  I would argue that as atomic and nuclear weapons are not useful in a rebellion that they could be banned.  Nevermind that the expense of atomic and nuclear weapons renders the question moot.
"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)

Krensky

  • Control
  • ******
  • Posts: 8339
  • WWTWD?
    • View Profile
Re: Arizona passed new gun legislation that supercedes federal law
« Reply #51 on: April 07, 2010, 08:59:46 PM »
Except that it's a myth.

Deterrence of undemocratic government was one of a whole pile of things that militias were for, and it was really a tiny part. The main purpose was because the US, when founded, didn't have a standing army or police force. In fact, men of appropriate age were required to own guns because the militias were the only military and police force.

The founding fathers, however, made their opinion on violent opposition to the government and civilian ownership of purely military hardware quite clear in Shays' Rebellion, the Whiskey Rebellion, and Fries's Rebellion. Frankly, the one thing that scared both the Federalists and Anti-federalists was the chaos and anarchy in France.

In fact, reading the evolution of the verbiage makes it rather clear the second amendment is less about private firearm ownership, and more about the state's right to maintained an armed militia when Congress was granted the right to raise a Federal army.

Over time those militias evolve into the National Guard and the State Police (or whatever your state calls them).

I'm all for private ownership of civilian firearms, and I'm firmly convinced 'gun control' should mean focusing on things like straw purchases and illegal sales. I also firmly believe you should have to take a mandatory safety course to buy a gun (well, the first gun at the least, maybe with retesting if so much time has passed but those are details). We need to get past the myth that the second amendment is about armed insurrection though.
Right now you have no idea how lucky you are that I am not a sociopath. - A sign seen above my desk.
There's no upside in screwing without things you can't explain. - Captain Roy Montgomery
PSN: Krensky_   Steam + GOG: Krensky

Wolverine

  • Control
  • ******
  • Posts: 3834
  • I want to smoke a fairy
    • View Profile
    • Geek-Life Balance (my personal blog)
Re: Arizona passed new gun legislation that supercedes federal law
« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2010, 11:57:45 PM »
I also firmly believe you should have to take a mandatory safety course to buy a gun (well, the first gun at the least, maybe with retesting if so much time has passed but those are details).

Do you not need a gun license in the US? Safety classes should be mandatory, as would a course on how to clean and look after your weapon(s). You could treat it a bit like a driving license.
"Dickhead books?"
 -Patrick Kapera wrestling with the New Zealand accent

samsimilian

  • Operative
  • ****
  • Posts: 430
  • Do or do not... there is no try
    • View Profile
Re: Arizona passed new gun legislation that supercedes federal law
« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2010, 03:00:08 AM »

I'm all for private ownership of civilian firearms, and I'm firmly convinced 'gun control' should mean focusing on things like straw purchases and illegal sales. I also firmly believe you should have to take a mandatory safety course to buy a gun (well, the first gun at the least, maybe with retesting if so much time has passed but those are details). We need to get past the myth that the second amendment is about armed insurrection though.

Gun politics should always require a license with regular practise and exams as well as aptitude tests.
If a person wants to own a gun for purpose of safty (familiy ...) or has another valid cause to own a gun, he gladly
would acquire such a license.


The original idea of it still holds true. There are more civilians that military personnel who have firearms and having the citizens maintain control by being stronger than the Federal military was an important step in our history.


I understand the sentiment, but i think this is  far from beeing realistic.

Krensky

  • Control
  • ******
  • Posts: 8339
  • WWTWD?
    • View Profile
Re: Arizona passed new gun legislation that supercedes federal law
« Reply #54 on: April 08, 2010, 03:11:43 AM »
I also firmly believe you should have to take a mandatory safety course to buy a gun (well, the first gun at the least, maybe with retesting if so much time has passed but those are details).

Do you not need a gun license in the US? Safety classes should be mandatory, as would a course on how to clean and look after your weapon(s). You could treat it a bit like a driving license.

Driving is a privlige, not a right.
Right now you have no idea how lucky you are that I am not a sociopath. - A sign seen above my desk.
There's no upside in screwing without things you can't explain. - Captain Roy Montgomery
PSN: Krensky_   Steam + GOG: Krensky

tenebrae

  • Operative
  • ****
  • Posts: 293
    • View Profile
Re: Arizona passed new gun legislation that supercedes federal law
« Reply #55 on: April 08, 2010, 03:15:04 AM »
You know, I kind of feel a bit of pride that the founding fathers had the balls to give every American the right to overthrow the  government. I'm almost certain it was the first time such a concept was implemented, though I'm unsure if other governments since have copied it or not. Anyone know?

I'd suggest that the Mandate of Heaven is pretty much the same concept, and it's been around a lot longer.

MilitiaJim

  • Control
  • ******
  • Posts: 4747
    • View Profile
    • My lame little LJ
Re: Arizona passed new gun legislation that supercedes federal law
« Reply #56 on: April 08, 2010, 12:32:14 PM »
I'd suggest that the Mandate of Heaven is pretty much the same concept, and it's been around a lot longer.
The Founding Father's didn't invent the concept, but they did bring it down to earth:

The Declaration of Independence
...  That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.  ...

I think our current incarnation lost the Mandate somewhere between the start of Social Security and the formation of the DEA, but your mileage may vary.

There are two types of militias:  Organized and unorganized.  The National and State Guards are the organized militias, and some Units have histories longer than that of the country.  The unorganized militia is the rest of the people, who are supposed to provide their own arms.
"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)

Agent 333

  • Control
  • ******
  • Posts: 2089
    • View Profile
Re: Arizona passed new gun legislation that supercedes federal law
« Reply #57 on: April 08, 2010, 01:22:55 PM »
It seems to me people forget the "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State" part. Well regulated means we can regulate it.
When all your problems are nails, all your tools start looking like hammers.

MilitiaJim

  • Control
  • ******
  • Posts: 4747
    • View Profile
    • My lame little LJ
Re: Arizona passed new gun legislation that supercedes federal law
« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2010, 01:51:14 PM »
It seems to me people forget the "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State" part. Well regulated means we can regulate it.
A few points:
1)  At the time the term "well regulated" meant "drilled (practiced) regularly."  If you lack a rifle/musket you cannot practice marching and firing in the square after church.
2)  That "we" excludes the Federal government.  (Though the 2nd Amendment may be incorporated against the States as well.)
3)  "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," is a dependent and explanatory clause.  It explains why the right to keep and bear arms is essential to a free State.
"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)

Krensky

  • Control
  • ******
  • Posts: 8339
  • WWTWD?
    • View Profile
Re: Arizona passed new gun legislation that supercedes federal law
« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2010, 02:05:16 PM »
Well regulated meant exactly what it says. Regulated and organized by the States and Federal government. The evolution of Madison's language in the drafts is obvious about it. The framers whanted an organized militia, not an armed mob like France.
Right now you have no idea how lucky you are that I am not a sociopath. - A sign seen above my desk.
There's no upside in screwing without things you can't explain. - Captain Roy Montgomery
PSN: Krensky_   Steam + GOG: Krensky